Pre amp gain vs tube screamer, recording guitar

[delirium trigge]

Okay, I know that the tube screamer has more options than just boosting the level of your guitar. That's essentially what it's doing, especially in simulators like amplitube. But, while it does that, it also slightly changes the tone even if the drive is kept all the way down and the tone knob down or in the middle. So, say you have an amp sim you are recording, in order to get a lot of the amp sims in amplitube, or any other plug in sim by any company is to have a strong guitar input, almost to the point of clipping, especially on amps with distortion.

I can achieve that by turning the pre amp up which makes the guitar signal stronger so the gain sounds like it's supposed to. But I can achieve the same thing by keeping the pre amp turned down more and putting a tube screamer in it, and turning the level of that all the way up. The advantage tube screamer seems to have, is it doesn't make it clip quite as easily, as it the pre amp does.

I'm also using real amps not just sims, and a real tube screamer. I've wondered with the real amps if I'd get the same result by running a small pre amp, before the pre amp of the amplifier or just run the tube screamer.

They both essentially are doing the same exact thing but one of them is not changing the character of the amp as much as the other. For example, the tube screamer tightens up the bass, the pre amp doesn't, and sometimes I don't want it to, I want the low end.

Just wondering what you guys do, in recording, not in live situations for tonal reasons. But in recording to get your real amp/amp sim to sound right. Turn the pre amp up until it's at the right level? Or keep it down and use a tube screamer and turn the drive on that up until it's at the right level?

 

[Greg_L]

Fuck tube screamers and preamps. Crank the master volume, and MIC THE SPEAKER..

 

[delirium trigge]

Fuck tube screamers and preamps. Crank the master volume, and MIC THE SPEAKER..

What do you mean? That is not what I am talking about. Cranking the master volume is turning up the volume of the amp. We are talking about the input signal being strong with a tube screamer or pre amp, because that's what changes the pre amp thats in the amp. For example a strong input signal, you can put the gain on 4 and that will plenty enough on a 5150. If you just plug straight into it, no tube screamer, no pre amp before, to get the same exact sound you may have to go to 6.

Master gain is not the same thing. We aren't talking about loudness in that sense.

 

[Greg_L]

What do you mean? That is not what I am talking about. Cranking the master volume is turning up the volume of the amp. We are talking about the input signal being strong with a tube screamer or pre amp, because that's what changes the pre amp thats in the amp. For example a strong input signal, you can put the gain on 4 and that will plenty enough on a 5150. If you just plug straight into it, no tube screamer, no pre amp before, to get the same exact sound you may have to go to 6.

Master gain is not the same thing. We aren't talking about loudness in that sense.

I know what we're talking about. Do you? You're talking about driving the front end of an amp. So do it. This isn't new stuff. Hit it with a clean boost, or a dirt pedal. A tube screamer set with the drive at 0 and the level at max is standard stuff. It's been done for decades. But still, less preamp gain and bigger volume = better sound. It's not even debatable.

 

[delirium trigge]

No no you're missing my point. We are talking about using a real amp or sim, IN RECORDING. Not how loud the amp is. For example, google, "Amp sims pre amp" You'll understand further what I'm talking about so I don't have to explain it. There are even plug ins that simulate pre amps for the amp sim pre amp.

The same applies in real life. If I don't want to CLIP the recording with a real amp I have to turn the mic I have it miked up DOWN on my pre amp on my interface. There are certain amps that having them at the volume they sound good at, even if you turn the pre amp on the interface all the way down it STILL is clipping.

The way to avoid this, in a real amp or an amp sim is to get that sound without having to crank the master volume to that extreme, by having a stronger guitar input into the amps pre amp. Then, as I said, all the sudden, what is normally 6 or 7 on the pre gain on a 5150, is now 3 or 4 with a pre amp in front of it or a tube screamer.

Now, with a real amp, as you suggested, there is a pretty simple way to work around some of that.

With an amp sim, THERE IS NO WAY TO WORK AROUND IT. You can turn the master volume up all you want, you will simply just clip it. The master volume is up as far as it will go without clipping. If you just plug the guitar into the interface, you can turn the gain on the 5150 to 10 and it won't sound like you got enough gain or sustain. Because there isn't enough signal from the guitar pushed into it.

There are two ways to do it, turn the pre amp up or use a tube screamer.

For example with amplitube, they sell the iRig HD, why do you think it has a pre amp inside of it and a gain knob on the side of it? For looks? That is because the amp sim will sound like crap if you don't have it at a high enough level. So it's either that with the saffire pro 40 interface, i rig hd, or keep the pre amp down and use a tube screamer.

You can use a real tube screamer, or a tube screamer in the program, they both will make the same effect happen.

And I agree with you which is my point, less pre amp gain and bigger volume. But in this situation, YOU CANT get sustain and that metal tone you want with less pre amp gain UNLESS you have a stronger guitar signal. So it's pre amp or tube screamer.

I've read online that some people are even using pre amp pedals for this reason. I have never even heard of a pre amp pedal. I know that's what the tube screamer basically is. But apparently they have pedals that are just pre amps, so it'd be like a tube screamer with just the level button.

Now if you are playing live, do whatever the heck you want to do. I am trying to get that optimal sound without clipping. With the tube screamer I can get that sound on the 5150 with the gain on 4. If I take away the tube screamer or guitar pre amp, I need the gain at like 7 and then theres all this noise, it's not as tight, etc.

 

[Greg_L]

There is so much wrong in there I'm not even gonna bother with it. You really could not be further away from a real functional understanding of how amps, or even sims, work.

 

[delirium trigge]

You've lost your mind, I understand what you're saying, you're not understanding what I am saying. You are talking about a different subject. I'm trying to explain it but you keep thinking I'm talking about what you are talking about. If you seriously don't know what I'm saying, then it'd be you that don't understand how it works.

Read this

guitar amp sims - why does inserting this plug make them sound "better" ??? [Archive] - Cockos Confederated Forums

Now once you read that it should be clear what I'm saying. If it's not, then you don't get it.

 

[Greg_L]

Look, you're talking about driving the virtual preamp in the idiot sim harder, like one would with a real amp. But since you obviously don't know how to use or record a real amp, you don't know how to use the sim version. Fuck dude, sims are made to be stupid easy for stupid people. Why are you having so much trouble? Read the fucking manual. I'm not reading a link of a bunch of sim morons trying to figure simple things out.

Let me break it down for you because I'm feeling charitable and you need it: For one, volume matters in real life, and in your fake life. Especially with guitars. If you think just because you're "recording" that you can do everything at whisper volumes, you're a bigger fool than I originally thought. You can "crank" an amp sim and not clip the output. It's very simple. Why haven't you figured that out yet? You can also use an actual tube screamer before your interface, which is fucking stupid, or just use the chickenshit sim version of a TS or clean boost in your sim software. Actually, using the sim version would probably be better. Boosting before your interface preamp is idiotic. Here's another thing - most sims have a "trim" before you hit your virtual amp head which will boost the signal going to the fake head. Newsflash, it has an output trim too. Blam. Mind blown! I don't use amplitube, but lesser sim programs have that simple functionality, so check yours. Learn your shit better before you start talking out of your ass..

 

[Greg_L]

Just wondering what you guys do, in recording, not in live situations for tonal reasons. But in recording to get your real amp/amp sim to sound right. Turn the pre amp up until it's at the right level? Or keep it down and use a tube screamer and turn the drive on that up until it's at the right level?

Here's the questions you asked:

My answer with real amps: less preamp gain, more volume.

You simply don't understand how an amp's signal path works, how a tube screamer works, and how a sim is *supposed* to work like a real amp..

 

[delirium trigge]

No, I do understand how it works. I'm explain to you when recording, you must use the pre amp on your interface, a separate pre amp that you sounds better and then through the interface to get the signal you need. Now with an amp sim you do the same thing OR you use a tube screamer which will do the same thing for you by using it as a clean boost. I would go into why it matters which you do but you aren't getting it.

Read what I just linked you to and you will see what I mean. And amp sim does work like a real amp. But you can't plug your guitar into the computer and the amp sim sound good. You have to plug it into a pre amp and have a strong input signal for the amp sim to sound good. But you don't want to clip to get that sound. The tube screamer allows you to do it without clipping. But so does the pre amp but you get two different sounds.

Again read the thread I posted.

 

[miroslav]

No no you're missing my point. We are talking about using a real amp or sim, IN RECORDING. Not how loud the amp is.

Yes...for RECORDING....you get better tone with the amp louder, because you drive the power tubes, and that's where a lot of the ballsy tone is at. If you want more fizzy tone, then just juice your front end.

Here's the thing....forget your mics and your mic pres and your interface....

GET THE TONE AT THE AMP....and that includes cranking it up as loud as it needs to be. Sure, sometimes you get the tone you want with a lower volume, but IMO, and from what I've experienced....the best tones end up with the amp pretty loud or at least up toward its full volume capability. I mean, if it's a 5W amp, it's not going to be real loud, like if it's a 50w amp.
Don't hesitate to crank the amp up just because you are recording.

Now....once you get your tone regardless of amp volume....THEN stick a mic in front of it, and adjust the mic pre-amp where you have a decent signal, and so on.

If you want to use a stomp box in front....fine, use whatever you have to...but you're wrong in thinking that you need to avoid a loud amp for recording.
You may have to for other reasons (neighbors, wife, kids)....but not for recording.

You can't touch a cranked amp with any kind of stomp or sim or whatever......

 

[Greg_L]

No, I do understand how it works. I'm explain to you when recording, you must use the pre amp on your interface, a separate pre amp that you sounds better and then through the interface to get the signal you need. Now with an amp sim you do the same thing OR you use a tube screamer which will do the same thing for you by using it as a clean boost. I would go into why it matters which you do but you aren't getting it.

Read what I just linked you to and you will see what I mean. And amp sim does work like a real amp. But you can't plug your guitar into the computer and the amp sim sound good. You have to plug it into a pre amp and have a strong input signal for the amp sim to sound good. But you don't want to clip to get that sound. The tube screamer allows you to do it without clipping. But so does the pre amp but you get two different sounds.

Again read the thread I posted.

You have a serious lack of understanding about direct recording with sims.

You are overcomplicating things because you don't understand them. Let me tell you, you're doing it very very wrong.


What is your actual question or problem here?

 

[Greg_L]

Yes...for RECORDING....you get better tone with the amp louder, because you drive the power tubes, and that's where a lot of the ballsy tone is at. If you want more fizzy tone, then just juice your front end.

Here's the thing....forget your mics and your mic pres and your interface....

GET THE TONE AT THE AMP....and that includes cranking it up as loud as it needs to be. Sure, sometimes you get the tone you want with a lower volume, but IMO, and from what I've experienced....the best tones end up with the amp pretty loud or at least up toward its full volume capability. I mean, if it's a 5W amp, it's not going to be real loud, like if it's a 50w amp.
Don't hesitate to crank the amp up just because you are recording.

Now....once you get your tone regardless of amp volume....THEN stick a mic in front of it, and adjust the mic pre-amp where you have a decent signal, and so on.

If you want to use a stomp box in front....fine, use whatever you have to...but you're wrong in thinking that you need to avoid a loud amp for recording.
You may have to for other reasons (neighbors, wife, kids)....but not for recording.

You can't touch a cranked amp with any kind of stomp or sim or whatever......

He's not using amps. He's using amplitube and an iphone.

 

[delirium trigge]

Incorrect, I am using amplitube sims on OSX with Logic for the most part. But the same thing applies if I use my amp as well. But that is easier to manage because all I have to do is turn the mic up and down with the pre amp. UNLESS I need it to be at a level in which I can't the tone I want in the space I have, which I have to compensate with a stronger signal thus, tube screamer, or the pre amp being louder.

With amp sims, it is not like an amp which is what I'm trying to explain to you, but Im trying to compare it to an amp so you understand what I mean because the same thing applies. But turning the volume up on the amp sim won't matter. Amp sims, to sound correct need something in front of them, like the link I showed you where they used a plug in in front of amplitube. Now you don't have to do that, you can use a tube screamer or just do it with the pre amp. But you get two different results doing it that way.

The question was, which way do you prefer?

You CAN Touch a cranked amp with a sim. If you don't believe that, look on youtube at amplitube 5150 vs real 5150. On a recording there is only a very subtle difference. They have it down that well.

In real life, an amp sim will not have the "feel" that is why I run any digital pre amp through a tube power amp to get that feel. For example my live rig, 1101, through mesa fifty/fifty to mesa cab. Some guys would run the 1101 or axe fx direct to the PA. That will not feel like the real amp. Add the tube power section and it's closer than you might realize.

What you are saying about micing an amp is totally missing the point. We are not talking about volume, or how the amp sounds better louder. We are talking about the freaking input of the guitar signal. I don't know why that's hard to understand. Why do you put a tube screamer in front of an amp and turn the level all the way up? TO STRENGTHEN the guitar signal, that is what it does, in turn you get a tighter sound, it cuts through better at lower volumes, BECAUSE THE INPUT SIGNAL IS STRONGER.

The same thing happens with a pre amp.

Now with amp sims, it's the same exact thing. I don't know why you are bringing the conversation to the amps output and how the amp sounds better louder when the entire subject is about the strength of the input of the guitar into the amp. You are talking about a different subject and don't even realize it.

You obviously didn't click the link. Or maybe you did and still don't realize it.

Since they are all the same subject to you, then you just plug a guitar in an amp and turn it up and bam thats it. Won't work that way with an amp sim OR a real amp if you want the real amp at lower volume but get the same sort of tone you would at a higher volume in the recording. THUS tube screamer.

It seems like you've made the most simplest of questions into a complicated thing which is a difference subject.

But it doesn't sound like you're even attempting to read what's being said. It sounds like you enjoy trolling. Just answer the question or don't answer the question. If you seriously think you can just plug your guitar into amplitube and pull it up in pro tools and just start playing and it sound good then good for you, but in reality that's not how it works. The input signal needs to be strong. And you are going to have three options, a plug in that does it, a tube screamer, or a pre amp.

 

[miroslav]

The question was, which way do you prefer?

Cranking the amp up.

You have some odd concepts about "stronger input signal".
If you juice the input with a stomp...but keep the amp at low volume....you end up overdriving the guitar amp preamp tubes.
If you crank the amp up, you then also overdrive the power tubes....which is a totally different sound, and why you can't touch it with any other combination of just stomp, pre-amp or sim. You may like that sound of no power tube overdrive...but that's something different.

AFA driving a sim hard, it's all digital at that point...so it's NOT the same as overdriving an amp's preamp tubes or power tubes.

I get what you are asking, but the real point is.....instead of monkeying around with stomps and preamps and sims....it's just a lot simpler and IMO better sounding to simply work with a real amp and get it all set there. Overdriving an amp at the pre or power sections is NOT the same as what you seem to think happens when you juice up a signal going to a sim.
Also....turning up the preamp on your interface to try and drive the sim harder is not the same thing. Basically you can leave the preamp lower....then once in the computer, push up the level, and then send to the sim, and it's the same as what you are doing with the interface preamp.

I mean....if you think you have some combination of devices and levels that sounds better to you than anything else, then just use it....but I think in some of that, you may be assuming things are happening when you talk about "stronger signal" that may not really be as you think.

 

[delirium trigge]

I understand what you're saying, but you're wrong on the amp sim and the signal being strong. Google that and you'll see why. The same does apply to a real amp.

Example, you are driving the pre amp tubes in a real amp. You are doing that by having a stronger guitar signal, the tube screamer is providing that for you, so it drives them harder and gives you that sound. The same exact thing happens with an amp sim and that's all I'm saying. There are no tubes in an amp sim, BUT a pre amp, tube screamer, etc, drives the amp sim just like a real tube amp. I imagine it's because they built the amp sims to literally react the same way as a real tube amp.

There is analog being converted to digital. It's not all digital as far as the guitar signal, unless, as I said you have a digital tube screamer sim or digital plug in before the amp sim. You still have to push the guitar signal harder before the sim, rather you do it digitally or analog before the amp sim. It will react the same exact way the real amp reacts.

 

[miroslav]

To get to the Amplitube sim....the signal has to be digital.
The tube screamer/preamp stuff has been converted to digital. At that point, you would get the same result if you just raised the overall level of that converted digital signal.
IOW....you could record at lower levels at the preamp....and it would be the exact same thing.

Also...rasing the output of the TS is not quite the same as raising the gain on the preamp....and not the same as raising the output of the preamp prior to conversion.

See...normally, all the guitar signal shaping would happened BEFORE any mic/preamp....at the amp.
That way you're doing it....is your shaping the tone before the mic/preamp and then again after it's been converted, at the sim.

Like I said, if it works for you, then go with it....but I prefer to get it all done with an amp, at the amp (and that includes using the power tubes by playing it louder)....and then after that, it's simply a matter of capturing it with mic/preamp and into the DAW.

It ain't the same thing.....

 

[delirium trigge]

But it is the same thing, example, lets say you use an iRig to play amplitube on your mac or any amp sim for that matter. The irig has a pre amp in it. If you turn it down the amp doesn't sound great at all but by turning the pre amp gain up it sounds like it should. The same exact thing happens with a tube screamer. This all happens before it's converted to digital. And then when it gets to digital, bam you got a strong signal and they sound good. If you just simply plug it in and set the amp the way you want it, it does not sound very good.

There are 100's of threads on this online. But none that I have found where people talk about which they prefer. I notice most guys just use a pre amp. But I'm finding a tube screamer to be better. Because when the guitar cable gets plugged out of the tube screamer into the interface and then becomes digital, the signal is stronger than it is if you plug it straight in. Not only can you hear it, it literally tells you how strong your signal is.

 

[jimmys69]

I'm going to have to say something here guys...

There is merit to using the right interface/pedal/device to make an amp sim sound more like a real amp. Using something on the way in to a A/D converter is no different than using a different PU.

You guys should chill on this dood. He is not an idiot, and he is asking relevant questions regarding a use of something we are not typically fond of using.

Just because we know that a real amp sounds better for us/everyone, is no reason to shut this guy down.

The OP is asking a relevant question that does not deserve harshing on what he wants to with the way he wants to do it.

Just saying...

 

[Greg_L]

I'm going to have to say something here guys...

There is merit to using the right interface/pedal/device to make an amp sim sound more like a real amp. Using something on the way in to a A/D converter is no different than using a different PU.

For tonal considerations, sure, maybe. I'd argue that a sim generally doesn't care what kind of pickups you use. They make all humbuckers sound the same. They make all single coils sound the same.

But for pure signal level? A boost before the interface and converter silly and unnecessary. If someone just likes the tightened midrange of a tube screamer, then use it. If you're using a tube screamer to jam the signal through an interface, then that's just goofy. Here's why: you set the input level inside of the sim software. Sims, like many plug-ins, are designed to see a certain, nominal input level. Some of them have a "learn" function in which you plug in direct to an instrument input on an interface, engage the learn function, play your guitar, and the sim auto sets the input to where the software wants it to be. From there, you can add more or less signal as you see fit inside of the sim program. That's where you "boost" the signal that the virtual amp sees. Then you can kick it even harder with a virtual stompbox or signal booster - still all inside of the sim. The real-world process of driving the preamp section of an amp still applies, but it's all done in the box with a sim. Everything before the converter stays clean and direct because all of the boosting comes later. Adding a real tube screamer before the converters is counterproductive and totally unnecessary, unless, again, you just like it for the sound and not for the boost.

"Cranking" the master volume on an amp sim works on the same principle as the input on some sims. I would assume that amplitube has an output trim. That same "learn" function that auto-sets the input can auto-set the output so you can have a virtual fire breathing monster amp blaring away inside of the sim, and the output will come out at a nice and DAW mix friendly -10 db or so.

My point in all this retardedness is that this delirious guy can do his shit however he wants. He can try to turn squares into circles all day long. Doing things the hard and/or dumb way is commonplace in home recording. Especially when not one single microphone is used anywhere in the iMix. Fine, whatever. You have to jump through hoops to make a bunch of fake things sound real. I get it. But he asked "how do you do it?" questions and then argues with the answers? Since when is that not grounds for a good bashing?