Panning different EQ ranges of 1 instrument

If people are here to argue rather than share opinions

Are you new to the internet? :D

I understand where you're coming from. I've many, many times come under fire for saying something that got taken the wrong way or for not explaining myself fully. Intention is easily lost through a cold computer screen. You damn near have to write in crayon for everyone to understand something fully.
 
Sharing opinions is what I thought this place was all about. When you use the word "never" you leave that realm and get into dogma. When you act all patronizing to folks who offer differing opinions you're just being a jerk.

WTF was this thread about again? When was the last time we saw the OP?
 
Last time we saw the OP was on page 1. I think he dipped out once he saw the love affair between snus and CMB begin - that's also when this thread went to shit.
 
Yeah what the hell happened to the 'bass/eq/panning thing :cool: (Actually it was also covered pretty well in another similar 'bass thread just a few days ago anywho.
For a long time I've known and used checking my kits panned from full out all the way towards full mono simply for the test-fit to the mix. Not only the sound and image size, but for the tone and attitude' of mono or near there. Don't need the check' as far any more as I kind of already got the cause and effect' dialed in, and no, don't use the mono kit much for what I do mostly. But there's an obivios and cool vibe can happen down in and around 'kit summed up the center.
Never!? :rolleyes: :D Gota' wonder if maybe ya even tried it
 
Some of my favourite drum sounds are ones from the 60's and early 70's and most of those bad boys are mono. I think there is certainly a place for mono drums and also a place for panning the bass outside of centre. Anybody who says definitively that there isn't is thinking one-dimensionally and imo, their opinion isn't worth putting too much stock into.
 
Yeah, back to the original post:
We are talking about positioning the waveform of the bass guitar performance in a mix. It certainly works to pan this if it suits the song and there are numerous examples (The Doors were mentioned, and I'll chuck in Cream, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and I will omit thousands of others). This is a largely aesthetic decision, and in my humble opinion, there is no "wrong" or "right".

Now, what about the phenomenon of low frequencies displaying less directional characteristics when introduced into a real-world (end-user, consumer, whatever) acoustic environment due to the physical wavelengths? Does this figure in anyone's thinking here? I realise that there is a fair amount of mid and even high frequency content in many a modern bass guitar sound - I am talking about the general frequency range of a recording in its totality.

Now to the drum thing (that was sort-of off topic, but anyway):
What about M/S as overheads? Mono-compatible - variable stereo spread at mixdown. Thoughts anyone? I have used an MS array over drums (with varied success) on numerous occasions when the recording room ceiling was low. (Please note - you can't do M/S simply by duplicating the side track and flipping it digitally. You have to do it in the analog domain and record three physical tracks if you're doing it "properly" - just sayin').

Also (still off topic really), and some of you might go "duh!", but you can't monitor in mono by hitting a summed mono button - pan everything to one speaker. To be really anal about it, make it a single driver like an Auratone, or a coaxial two-way.

Merry whatever,
Cheers,
Brento
 
You are always going to find different opinions, and it is going to depend on the type of music and the result that you are looking for. I have recorded much of my music (progressive riff-rock, for lack of a better term) with the following panning:

Kick - C
Snare - 5R
Bass - 5L
Hat - 20R
Toms (2 rack, 2 floor) - 50R to 65L
O/H - 85L & 85R
Room - 95L & 95R
Distorted Guitars - might range from 20 to 80 L&R depending on how "in your face" they need to be
Acoustic, Keys, or anything meant to add depth and "air" is going to get panned hard left and right
Vocals right up the middle for lead if only one track, if doubled, I may go 10L and 10R depending on the sound I'm looking for
Backing Vox will depend, again, on how "in your face" they need to be

My idea behind these starting points is that it gives each piece its own space in the mix, so instruments and frequencies aren't fighting for the same spot in the stereo field. I use side-chain compression to give the kick room to breathe when the bass and kick are being simultaneously struck, and I play with frequencies to create room for all of the instruments and vox. I will tweak any and all of these panning settings based on the sound that I am looking for on any particular song (as I write in many different genres since I have stopped performing live).

Once again, I believe that it this can be very opinion-oriented based on the type of sound you are looking for. Since I am writing for the purpose of submitting songs to record companies so they can use them with a given artist, I try to create a certain amount of separation so that whoever is listening can zero-in on something that they can relate to an artist that they feel may be suited to record my material. However, I feel that the separation that I create helps the songs ebb and flow, kind of giving room for everything to breathe.

I hope my opinion gives you some more insight and options to try.
 
Now, what about the phenomenon of low frequencies displaying less directional characteristics when introduced into a real-world (end-user, consumer, whatever) acoustic environment due to the physical wavelengths? Does this figure in anyone's thinking here? I realise that there is a fair amount of mid and even high frequency content in many a modern bass guitar sound - I am talking about the general frequency range of a recording in its totality..

The directional characteristics are mostly due to the speakers' and human head's size relative to the wavelengths involved. I do take that into consideration, generally by panning instruments with a lot of LF content to the center. A bass management tool can bring the lows to the center if a LF instrument is panned.

Now to the drum thing (that was sort-of off topic, but anyway):
What about M/S as overheads? Mono-compatible - variable stereo spread at mixdown. Thoughts anyone? I have used an MS array over drums (with varied success) on numerous occasions when the recording room ceiling was low. (Please note - you can't do M/S simply by duplicating the side track and flipping it digitally. You have to do it in the analog domain and record three physical tracks if you're doing it "properly" - just sayin').

For single point overhead I generally find X-Y to be more convenient, but I did recently use M-S to capture the whole kit from the front, 3' out from the kick and about 4' off the ground. Worked great. And, no, you don't have to record three tracks. Duplicating/inverting digitally is exactly analogous to a Y-cable with pins 2 and 3 swapped on one output.

Also (still off topic really), and some of you might go "duh!", but you can't monitor in mono by hitting a summed mono button - pan everything to one speaker. To be really anal about it, make it a single driver like an Auratone, or a coaxial two-way.

There's not a whole lot of difference between monitoring a mono signal through one or two speakers. High and low frequencies sum differently, but I generally do the one speaker thing only a little at the beginning and once or twice during the mix. It's somewhat useful but not critical.
 
(Please note - you can't do M/S simply by duplicating the side track and flipping it digitally. You have to do it in the analog domain and record three physical tracks if you're doing it "properly" - just sayin').
What would be the reason for this? I can't figure out what possible difference it would make.
 
The directional characteristics are mostly due to the speakers' and human head's size relative to the wavelengths involved. I do take that into consideration, generally by panning instruments with a lot of LF content to the center. A bass management tool can bring the lows to the center if a LF instrument is panned.



For single point overhead I generally find X-Y to be more convenient, but I did recently use M-S to capture the whole kit from the front, 3' out from the kick and about 4' off the ground. Worked great. And, no, you don't have to record three tracks. Duplicating/inverting digitally is exactly analogous to a Y-cable with pins 2 and 3 swapped on one output.



There's not a whole lot of difference between monitoring a mono signal through one or two speakers. High and low frequencies sum differently, but I generally do the one speaker thing only a little at the beginning and once or twice during the mix. It's somewhat useful but not critical.

Thanks to "Boulder Sound Guy" and "Farview" for the replies. I would be glad to have any misapprehension of mine corrected, particularly one as inconvenient as this - there is considerable stuffing around involved if you want to encode/decode m/s in the analog domain.

Firstly, when I'm forced into low overheads by ceiling height I mostly use x/y as well, and coincidentally (no pun intended) I have also used the out-front M/S technique you described with excellent results. As overheads I have to say M/S is a bit messy - seems to me that you need a bit more distance and a larger soundstage for M/S to come into its own.

On M/S decoding: I was advised by a crusty old experienced audio guy (the first person I worked for actually) that "ya can't do it digitally - it doesn't work". Now I always assumed that this was because once you are working with a digitised waveform, the phase relationships of particularly the very high frequencies might be effected by a certain amount of aliasing or step/squarewave degradation (Now I examine my thinking and I realise that even splitting and flipping before recording to digital still results in two digitised waveforms, so there goes that thread of logic - AND we are also talking about the signal from a single mic capsule for the "side" component, so it shouldn't matter anyway - right? Alan Blumlein's techniques have always tied my head in knots...). Anyway, since reading the two posts after mine, I have tried to find some reference on the web to problems with M/S in the digital domain, and I haven't seen one yet. So, has anyone else ever heard of this? (perhaps I should ask this question as the subject of an entire thread)

BTW, I have done M/S decodes in the digital domain, and it seemed to work for the most part - however I did think that the directionality of the high frequencies was a little less convincing (but perhaps I was expecting this and therefore that's what I heard).

I should have been more clear (particularly considering the shitfight that was going on here a few days ago) - I was talking about checking the phase of multiple mics on single sources (like what happens to kick when the snare bottom mic is introduced). I do a lot of checking for phase cancellation on drum recordings. I just thought it was "proper" to do it with one speaker.

Incidentally, the reason I started banging on here about M/S is due to the mono compatibility aspect of the technique. To digress further, are there any film sound people here? I understand that there are some differences of opinion as to how an M/S stereo matrix translates when introduced into Dolby surround encoding/decoding for film - anyone want to dive into that murky bog for us?

Cheers,
Brent
 
Incidentally, the reason I started banging on here about M/S is due to the mono compatibility aspect of the technique. To digress further, are there any film sound people here? I understand that there are some differences of opinion as to how an M/S stereo matrix translates when introduced into Dolby surround encoding/decoding for film - anyone want to dive into that murky bog for us?

M-S micing is the exact mirror image of the original Dolby Surround in that the process of decoding the side is reversed to decode the surround (difference, or L - R) channel from the stereo mix. The side mic IS the surround channel. If you play a recording done with M-S into a Dolby Surround system the side mic will come out the surround speakers.

Dolby Pro Logic adds a center channel and some clever processing to steer signals to appropriate speakers, but should handle M-S recordings (with properly decoded side) just fine as far as I know. The side mic will still pretty much come from the rear speakers.

Dolby Digital can accept discrete 5.1 signal so the signals are already explicitly assigned to their respective speakers. Any problems with M-S would have been handled in the studio. Stereo signals are decoded in a manner similar to Pro Logic (or actually with Pro Logic).
 
To answer the original question, I've seen people just do a "manual" multi-band setup, where you duplicate the bass track, filter out all the high end over around 150-250Hz on one track (using a steep slope of about 24-48 dB/octave), the filter out all the low end at the same frequency as the other track at the same slope. Pan the high end where you'd like, set the low end in the center.
I REALLY dig the sound of doing this, and then reamping the bass through some guitar combo amp or something. I did that to a bass through this crappy Peavey amp, and the thing sounded AMAZING.
 
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