New MXL mics - New Flagships

Well, now I suppose we would have to debate the definition of "cheap". I use two definitions; one for money and one for power. I'm a lot more interested in the power side of the equation, also size which I like to optimize. So I don't really pay a lot of attention to this entire side of the market.

But anyway, if you have a two-stage amp (say a twin triode), you can avoid the problem with noise and loading the capsule. Whether or not the mic should have a twin triode, eh, you decide. Another alternative is to use a solid-state output, which is probably heretical, but if somebody is just gonna plug the tube mic into a transistor amp (say a Neve), I can't see the harm. That is the lowest cost option in power and dollars.

As far as I know, there is no such circuit as a direct-coupled tube output, I could be wrong there but I think all of the tube mic circuits I have seen have a capacitor, a transformer, or a transistor somewhere in there. I mean, it's possible do to direct coupled, but it would take more tube stages and I think a rather different power supply. So ignoring that, of the first three options, probably the transistor is the cheapest and lowest distortion, and the transformer is the highest. Sure, I love transformers too.

Capacitors are bad? I don't about that. Aren't capsules capacitors? ;) The dominant mode of capacitor distortion is second order, and quite low in a good cap. Every guitar tube amp I've stared at had interstage capacitors, people seem to love those things.

But hey, $1,000 mic? Why *shouldn't* it have two or three or four tube stages, if that is what is required? Tubes aren't that expensive . . .

In the end, you aren't really arguing that MXL is a crap mic, you are arguing that K67 capsules and therefore circuits are fundamentally flawed. Maybe, but why pick on poor MXL for following the rest of the world?

PS I love flat response microphones :)
 
Can't answer fully right now because I'm busy at work, but i would say yes, my chief problem is that I'm not a fan of the K67 capsule in any way.;)
 
JordanD said:
hey, i agree! i use an mxl 990 and 991 that i got years ago in a pack, and they sound really great; i highly recommend them! they sound as good as any other mic ever!
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I've heard your stuff. You endorsement of them could do way more damage to their rep than my first post ever could, and even I don't think they deserve that.:p

That being said, yeah mshilarious makes a good point. I really have a problem with any budget mic that uses a K67 capsule so its unfair of me to say its just Marshall. Although in reality I can't say that even the copies come anywhere near the halfway decent sound of an authentic Neumann K67. If they can get that harsh of a capsule to sound decent then props to them for the accomplishment! I've only ever heard one mic that really sounds amazing with one. The other professional outfits that have accomplished it via compensation/feedback are all just meh, IMO.
 
mshilarious said:
But anyway, if you have a two-stage amp (say a twin triode), you can avoid the problem with noise and loading the capsule. Whether or not the mic should have a twin triode, eh, you decide. Another alternative is to use a solid-state output, which is probably heretical, but if somebody is just gonna plug the tube mic into a transistor amp (say a Neve), I can't see the harm. That is the lowest cost option in power and dollars.
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Sure can. Question is, does anybody? I mean well? Sure Rupert knew what the hell he was doing but he's a genius. Most of the classic Neve sound was in the transformers BTW.

mshilarious said:
As far as I know, there is no such circuit as a direct-coupled tube output, I could be wrong there but I think all of the tube mic circuits I have seen have a capacitor, a transformer, or a transistor somewhere in there. I mean, it's possible do to direct coupled, but it would take more tube stages and I think a rather different power supply. So ignoring that, of the first three options, probably the transistor is the cheapest and lowest distortion, and the transformer is the highest. Sure, I love transformers too.
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The only place I would ever decouple, or rather remove a coupling capacitor would be at the capsule side. I love GOOD transformers. Never heard a mic where a good transformer was a hindrance. I've heard some where a cheap transformer was. I'd rather use a well designed/manufactered transformer than the sterile sound of SS impedance converter any day, of any weak, of any month.

mshilarious said:
Capacitors are bad? I don't (know) about that. Aren't capsules capacitors? ;) The dominant mode of capacitor distortion is second order, and quite low in a good cap. Every guitar tube amp I've stared at had interstage capacitors, people seem to love those things.
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Bad capacitors are bad. Good ones can be invisible depending on the type. Some can add to the sound in a good way. (think PIO). I like to use teflon or polystyrene at the capsule side. Just as good as bare wire IMO. Polycarbonate and polypropylene will do and are perfect to couple the transformer side, depending on space. Changing the interstage caps can change the magic! For good OR bad.

A string of bad non-linear, high loss anythings isn't good. I have 2 960 boards here on my desk and they have quite a few cheap electroytics on the signal path. The 960 doesn't sound bad really. It just doesn't sound fantastic so I'm being a bit overly critical. That's become my nature though.

mshilarious said:
But hey, $1,000 mic? Why *shouldn't* it have two or three or four tube stages, if that is what is required? Tubes aren't that expensive . . .
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Which tubes? Tubes suitable for microphone usage? Ever priced a VF14? I know that you know they're over 2 grand a piece if you can find them. Guess what that did to the price of an EF14? Upwards of $200 a piece now if you are going to use it as a sub. AC701? $600. Can't even find them and they were designed for microphones! See what solid state did to the world? All the guys that knew how to make the good stuff are gone! They were run out of the market by the 60's and 70's solid state boom!

Of course you can use others. 5840, 6205, EF95, EF86. Those I find to be good and fairly inexpensive, although a really good EF86 can run $60 and an EF806 even more!

12AX7? Forget it. To use that line of tube is pointless. For a transformer you're wasting any gain it has on the transformer ratio and losing a lot. Its a tube meant to be pushed into serious distortion, not subtle distortion. You'd be better off tying both of the triodes together and lowering the impedance to use a lower turns trafo. Think anyone's doing that? No. So we have a plethora of tubes in mics that would be better used in a Marshall stack.

In any case, there are a few who use more than one tube in the mic or use the other half for impedance conversion, and again, IMO none of them sound worth a damn. Of course, we ARE talking about home recording so my mouth and tastes have probably gotten to big for my britches. I gotta remember who the market is.:)


mshilarious said:
In the end, you aren't really arguing that MXL is a crap mic, you are arguing that K67 capsules and therefore circuits are fundamentally flawed. Maybe, but why pick on poor MXL for following the rest of the world?

PS I love flat response microphones :)
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Agreed, I'd like to apologize to Roy and MXL for the wild post. I'm just taking out my grievances on them in place of the whole "industry" of K67 users. Not that any of the other "capsules" (i.e. 603, 990, Behringer C1 etc.) out there are totally useful in their original state either. They do get used though and some people are happy. I guess that's all that counts.

P.S. I love mics with really nice character and find them to have more magic that a ruler flat response. Flat mics leave me exactly that. Flat.
 
Well I think I agree with most of your last post, so . . . last night I was sketching a new tube mic design, which I had kinda sworn off, but . . . how about no audio-path capacitors and an output transformer as the plate load on a pentode, as in a single-ended guitar amp output stage? Hmmm. Lots of transistors though, but only one in the signal path, the capsule FET. Not strictly necessary, but I can't find any FET-less small capsule that I like, so . . .

Oh, and I think I can keep power consumption down to 20mW :drunk:
 
Whew

Well, I am sure our engineers will find the above interesting reading.

Oh Phil, the Revelation uses an EF86 by the way.

We are continually experimenting with new designs, so stay tuned. ;)

You are in Los Angeles aren't you Phil?

Maybe I can arrange to let you try one of the newer mics, so you can get a feel for the new ones.

Best wishes to you all

Roy@marshallelectronics.net
 
PhilGood said:
Roy, I've owned more than a few MXL microphones. Well over 20. 6 years ago I began studying microphone construction and engineering in great detail. To the point of obsession. I've made friends with some of the best people in that field.

Cheers!
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Phil,


Sorry about the sidetracking but can you or do you know anyone who can fix an akg d19 mic? Or if it's possible to get a new capsule for it?
 
mshilarious said:
Transformers don't pass DC.
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Duh! I don't know why that slipped my thought process. I put a big focus on that coupling cap personally. If I understand what I've read elsewhere, allowing too large a value in there (or nothing at all) without having a high enough polarization voltage to the capsule can actually result in a bit of loss in the low end, contrary to popular thinking about larger values extending the bass. They can, but without if the polarization voltage is weak the low end gain can be lowered. That cap may have a bigger role than most people think. I don't know that I'd want it gone.
 
SteveM said:
Phil,


Sorry about the sidetracking but can you or do you know anyone who can fix an akg d19 mic? Or if it's possible to get a new capsule for it?
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I just saw a replacement capsule for a D12 on eBay a few weeks ago. Might still be there.
 
openreel24 said:
Well, I am sure our engineers will find the above interesting reading.

Oh Phil, the Revelation uses an EF86 by the way.

We are continually experimenting with new designs, so stay tuned. ;)

You are in Los Angeles aren't you Phil?

Maybe I can arrange to let you try one of the newer mics, so you can get a feel for the new ones.

Best wishes to you all

Roy@marshallelectronics.net
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That might be interesting. Might help bolster my view of the products and commitment. The ears are the best judge! I live nearby too, just in Redondo. I might be scared to walk in now though.:o
 
PhilGood said:
Duh! I don't know why that slipped my thought process. I put a big focus on that coupling cap personally. If I understand what I've read elsewhere, allowing too large a value in there (or nothing at all) without having a high enough polarization voltage to the capsule can actually result in a bit of loss in the low end, contrary to popular thinking about larger values extending the bass. They can, but without if the polarization voltage is weak the low end gain can be lowered. That cap may have a bigger role than most people think. I don't know that I'd want it gone.
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Oh I thought you were talking about the other side. This is an electret capsule with an internal FET, although as I said before that FET isn't necessary and the capsule could be directly coupled to the grid. Electrets have that advantage . . . anyway, the FET source is directly coupled to the grid, plate to transformer and there you go, no caps required.
 
See, now that would be interesting! I'd like to see a tube mic running a classic trafo coupled circuit, but with a fixed bias capsule!

Maybe this conversation doesn't belong in this thread anymore.
 
PhilGood said:
See, now that would be interesting! I'd like to see a tube mic running a classic trafo coupled circuit, but with a fixed bias capsule!

Maybe this conversation doesn't belong in this thread anymore.
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Who cares, it's as good a thread as any.

And while I haven't stared at the schemo in detail, I think your answer is the AT3060. Sadly, I don't know what has become of AT's 25mm electret capsule. I don't know if it's used in the 20 series, I thought they had gone a bit smaller. Or the 4033, that I think is smaller.

Of course the 3060 isn't a classic tube mic, because 6418 is a funny little tube with a huge helping of distortion. I dig it though :)

Maybe dig up an AT3035 and stick in a 5840 . . .
 
Don't worry Phil

Even though we might not agree on everything, we are still all pretty nice guys here. We haven't assassinated anyone in a long time.
 
PhilGood said:
So, what's wrong with your D12?
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It's a D19. I fixed one problem it had but on a second readjustment I wound up breaking one of the fine hair like wires that goes into the "capsule". Now there is no lead coming out of it and it's useless.

I'm not sure if I have terminology right. I'm having a problem distinguishing between the term capsule, membrane or diaphragm? The wire I broke is from the thin molded plastic membrane that receives the initial signal. That has two hair like wires coming out of it and that is soldered to two bigger wires to the coil.
 
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