Need to buy a turntable

C

Chibi Nappa

New member
I hope this is the right forum for this...

Help.

My latest CD purchase put me over the edge. I just can't do it anymore.
Unfortunately, I have no frame of reference to sort out crap turntables from good ones from total overkill.

So what would go with:
Decent-ish Sony 80's era 2-channel receiver
and
Big-ass Klipsch speakers (like these guys)

Any suggestions?
 
Specific model numbers I don't know but Pioneer Teac and Techniques are all good tables. I have heard nothing but good things about techniques. I think I spelled the third one wrong, but you get the point.
 
I'm a vinyl guy (6000 albums and counting) and 5 turntables ...... 2 of them expensive by my standards (over $1500).

The biggest thing you want is belt drive, not direct drive so you DON'T want a Technics.
You also want something with a solid plinth (the flat part that surrounds the platter and the arm is mounted to) and not some hollow plastic thing that'll amplify every vibration that hits it.

You can go a couple of ways ...... if you want new there are zillions of them out there.
go to Needledoctor.com ..... you'll see good ones starting at around 350.

If that's too steep then go to Ebay and look for belt drive Duals, Pioneers, Kenwood ..... Marantz.


For new ones look at the Rega, Music Hall ..... ProJect ...... they all have entry level 'tables in that low 300 price range, maybe even lower on sale.
Make sure you get a moving magnet cartridge and NOT a moving coil cart (MM or MC) as the MC carts require a phono-pre intended for MC's and that Sony won't have one. It'll definitely be MM.

PM me if you have questions or in this thread if you want everyone to know what you'll be bidding on.
:)

Vinyl is awesome and it's a lot more awesome on a good table.


And BTW ...... oooh, nice speakers.
I've read some killer reviews on those.
 
Lt. Bob, I asked this question on another forum and another guy said I DON'T want belt drive. I'm going to believe you over him, but what's the deal? How does belt Vs direct effect the whole thing?

And I noticed you said "Pro-Ject" and "Rega". Are the Debut III and P1 any good? Half of the 'net says they can't touch a Technics 1200 and half says they sound much better.
 
well ...... the biggest single thing a turntable needs to do besides turn at the correct speed is keep extraneous vibrations away from the needle since it doesn't 'know' the difference between a movement caused by the groove or one caused by vibrations from somewhere else.

Motors vibrate so a direct drive 'table has the needle directly physically connected to the motor. All motors vibrate so those vibrations go right into the platter and then to the stylus.
Also, although not quite as easy to see ..... is that direct drive has a circuit that's continuously monitoring the motor for correct speed because it has to turn at a fairly slow speed .... 33 and a 1/3.
This involves hundred of corrections per second which is yet another extraneous vibration of hundreds of hz for the needle to pick up.

A belt drive system often doesn't even require a speed control because the motor turns a LOT faster than in DD and it's easier to get a motor to consistently spin at a thousand RPM than at exactly 33&1/3.
Plus a belt insulates the motor from transferring any vibes to the needle because it has some give and absorbs motor vibrations.

I'm not sure where you saw people saying a Technics is the best but I feel sure it wasn't from any audiophile place ..... probably some pro-sound forum where they ridicule the idea that vinyl is any good anyway.
Go to audiophile places and it's pretty much universal that belt drive is the way to go. Try Stereophile.com for a starting place.

Further .... look at high priced 'tables .......... NONE of them are direct drive ...... oh, maybe you'll find ONE and can say "Well here's one" but I'm not aware of one.
And I'm talking 'tables from $2000 to $100,000. If DD was any good some of those high priced tables would be DD. None are.
The Debut and the P1 will smoke a Technics for just sound quality. But they're manual ...... no features at all ...... you have to lift the arm at the end of the record ........ but they'll sound good.
Bear in mind that some of those folks praising the Technics are likely DJ's and the Technics 1200 is a standard for DJ's. It's tough and has a high starting torque so it gets going quickly.
But DJ work has nothing to do with high fidelity ...... their carts are high tracking force pieces of crap just for starters. That's not what you want if your main goal is high quality sound.

The P1 doesn't attract me as much as the Debut because the P1 has a MDF platter. Now ..... Rega is a big very well regarded name in 'tables. One of the very best and they say that MDF is a good material for platters. I have no reason to doubt them and I've read good reviews on the P1.
But I want a alloy platter on my cheaper 'tables. Acrylic on my spensive ones.
 
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By some weird coincidence, the Debut is litterally the only turntable that I can walk into a store and buy in my area (aside from the $100 USB types at Target). Maybe that is some sort of sign? :D

Thanks a million, Lt. Bob. It's nice to have a starting point for mulling it all over.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I'm a vinyl guy (6000 albums and counting) and 5 turntables ...... 2 of them expensive by my standards (over $1500).

The biggest thing you want is belt drive, not direct drive so you DON'T want a Technics.
You also want something with a solid plinth (the flat part that surrounds the platter and the arm is mounted to) and not some hollow plastic thing that'll amplify every vibration that hits it.

You can go a couple of ways ...... if you want new there are zillions of them out there.
go to Needledoctor.com ..... you'll see good ones starting at around 350.

If that's too steep then go to Ebay and look for belt drive Duals, Pioneers, Kenwood ..... Marantz.


For new ones look at the Rega, Music Hall ..... ProJect ...... they all have entry level 'tables in that low 300 price range, maybe even lower on sale.
Make sure you get a moving magnet cartridge and NOT a moving coil cart (MM or MC) as the MC carts require a phono-pre intended for MC's and that Sony won't have one. It'll definitely be MM.

PM me if you have questions or in this thread if you want everyone to know what you'll be bidding on.
:)

Vinyl is awesome and it's a lot more awesome on a good table.


And BTW ...... oooh, nice speakers.
I've read some killer reviews on those.
Click to expand...

Well, I've learned a few things. Thanks Bob. As far as using a Technics, I have read that some use them as a record lathe. I am also looking for a turntable and now I have much more info to go on.
 
One more question guys:

I borrowed a cheap turntable from my sister-in-law last night. Pluged it into my reciever's phono input. The sound was horribly muddy, dark, and distorted. The face of the reciever had a toggle button for moving magnet and moving coil. Both sounded awful.

So I plugged the turntable in to a regular input. Sounded fine.

Am I correct in guessing that the turntable itself has a phono preamp, or is there something wrong with the phono preamp in my reciever?


Also, anything played at rock n' roll volume (through the clean-sounding regular input) vibrated right on up through the table and fed back through the needle. Is this just a consequence of using a $70 turntable, or will I need some sort of isolated shelf even when I get a nice turntable?
 
that has to be because normally a phono into a regular input would be VERY low level and extremely midrangey.
Is her turntable newish? It's become kinda common now for cheap turntables for the masses to have phono pres because so few stereo components have them nowadays.

And that's very cool that your Sony will take MM and MC carts. That's not real common with 80's receivers.
I'm pretty sure that Debut comes with a MM cart but now you know you can use either.

As for the feedback problem ....... cheapos are far more susceptible to it than good turntables because as I mentioned above, one of the main duties of a good table is to isolate the needle from outside vibrations.
The cheapo, I'm sure, is a hollow plasticky thing that almost rings if you tap it. A good 'table is pretty inert.
Having said that, I'd want to know more about where it is ...... for instance ( I know you didn't do this but I'm giving examples) I've seen 'tables put on top of speakers! :eek:

If your house has a suspended floor that just walking across causes vibrations, it can be a pain to get a table up really loud ...... the cure for that is a wall mount. You fasten a shelf to a wall somewhere and that'll isolate it from vibes carried thru the floor.

That's an extreme case though ...... I have a suspended floor and my living room 'table, (a ProJect) is sitting 3 inches from one of the speakers. I have no problem cranking it whereas a cheapie would be feeding back for sure.

And if you have a concrete slab with the floor on that ..... then I'd say it's totally the cheapo and simply getting a decent 'table would do it.

One of the cool things about vinyl is you can go to used record stores and flea markets and buy tons of music for 2 bucks a pop.
 
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Time to dig this one up again. This decision was made for me this weekend when a United Audio 1219 fell in my lap for free. It took about 3 hours of cleaning, lubricating, tweaking, and balancing to get it working.

Right now, the motor and mechanics are working flawlessly.

The sound is really beautiful, but... It's mono. I can't figure out what could possibly cause that.

The cartridge says Ortofon FF15XE. Is that a mono cartridge? I doubt it is. Before I started fixing the turntable, the stylus was knocked way out of position within the cartridge. Could I have messed that up when I put it back? Could the left and right audio wires be stripped and touching each other somewhere? I can't figure this out.
 
well .... no ... it's not supposed to be a mono cart.
Are there four pins at the back?
If so it's not mono. A mono cart will only have two pins.
Sometimes some mono freaks will make little jumpers to jump a couple of pins to make it mono but that's not likely.

If the stylus was knocked way out of position then it's likely fucked. It COULD have screwed up the coils inside ...... they're fairly delicate.
Do you get sound out of both sides but it's just the same thru each speaker?
Have you played things that you KNOW are stereo in ways that are easy to hear?

If you decide to get a new cart try http://www.needledoctor.com/

They have lots of inexpensive carts. DON'T get anything that's for DJ's. Grado makes some nice sounding carts for $40 and up ..... needle doctor have lots to choose from.
 
Lt. Bob said:
Are there four pins at the back?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Do you get sound out of both sides but it's just the same thru each speaker?
Click to expand...
It's kind of weird. When I set the preamp to moving magnet, the sound comes out of both speakers. When I set the preamp to moving coil, the sound comes out of the right louder than both speakers were before (overall volume increase switching to moving coil) and comes out of the left super-quiet.

I'm pretty sure this cartridge is moving magnet, I was just poking around to see if the problem was in the preamp.

Have you played things that you KNOW are stereo in ways that are easy to hear?
Click to expand...
Yeah. A buddy's new record and "Revolver". Today I lowered the tracking weight from 2g to 1.5g and altered the anti-skate to match (cartridge is 1-3 I think). Now I think I'm hearing the tiniest, tiniest bit of stereo separation. But it's small enough that I question if it is there at all.



If you decide to get a new cart try http://www.needledoctor.com/
Click to expand...
Thanks. Are there any compatibility issues?
 
Chibi Nappa said:
Thanks. Are there any compatibility issues?
Click to expand...
well ...... that UA table is belt drive I believe ...... or rim drive.
With Grados, there can be a small amount of hum when the cart gets closer to the center of the record IF the 'table's a direct drive because they'll pick up a little hum from the motor which is at the center. It's low level, you'd have to crank the stereo with nothing playing to hear it.
But that UA isn't direct drive so it should be no prob.

You know ....... the problem COULD be the pre. Do you have access to a different one just to eliminate the pre before you go spending money on a cart?
I mean, a pre fault that doesn't give you stereo isn't likely, I haven't heard of it before but it is possible.
 
Lt. Bob said:
well ...... that UA table is belt drive I believe ...... or rim drive.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Rim drive.
You know ....... the problem COULD be the pre. Do you have access to a different one just to eliminate the pre before you go spending money on a cart?
I mean, a pre fault that doesn't give you stereo isn't likely, I haven't heard of it before but it is possible.
Click to expand...
I don't have a second pre, but I do have access to a cheap-o low end turntable. I could check if that turntable plays stereo to troubleshoot the pre.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
Yeah. Rim drive.
I don't have a second pre, but I do have access to a cheap-o low end turntable. I could check if that turntable plays stereo to troubleshoot the pre.
Click to expand...
Rim drive is cool. There is a small subset of vinyl guys that insist the 'pacing' is better on rim drive. Plus I got to establish some cred as a vinyl guy for knowing that.
:laughings:

That sounds like a plan man ..... if the cheapo gets stereo then it's the cart.
I'm betting it's the cart. Generally it's considered bad if the stylus has been bent way out of place.
:D
 
Just to throw this out........... my town and neighboring town dumps have what are known as good used sheds *free stuff for the taking* and I see all the time, turntables/amfm receivers/stereo amps/ heck even 8track players. And 9 x out of 10 they work perfectly fine. It's always worth a look.



:cool:
 
This sounds crazy to me as I type it, but...

This all started because I'm fed up with just about every aspect of modern music production. So I figured I'd be buying some old albums I never got around to hearing before. Then I figured that when most of this stuff was transfered in the 80's, the CD usually got boned with a crappy copy of the wrong master tape. So I might as well buy the best master transfer on vinyl.

But now that I'm hearing vinyl for the first time in my adult life, I think the sound of records might be inherently superior to the sound of CD...even with my cartridge that I am sure must be damaged. I'm having a hell of a time wrapping my head around this one. All of the data I've ever seen says CD has to be superior. I can't come up with a single reason why what I am hearing now appears to sound better.

Today I will buy some albums I am already intimately familliar with... but for now I'm scratching my head.
 
I've never been sold on the idea of CD's for a couple of non-audiophile reasons.
#1 ...... they're 25 year old computer technology. How much other 25 year old computer technology do you use? None because it sucks compared to cureent tech.

#2 ..... they're the FIRST digital playback media ...... how many other products do you continue to use the very first model of 25 years later?
None because they suck. A model T Ford sucks as a real car and a 25 year old TV sucks by modern standards.

Now ...... current 24/96 absolutely can finally replace vinyl with something better but the masses are quite content with CD's and, in fact, are happy with lower res MP3's so I think 16/44.1 will be the standard for a while.

Generally I prefer the sound of vinyl to CD's.
But when you get into hi-res stuff then it's a different story.
But you can buy so much music for 2 bucks a pop if you have a vinyl playback system. Any flea market will have lots and many record stores now have used vinyl.
Hell ..... a LOT of new stuff still comes out on vinyl.
 
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