Need Help with Choosing Components for Audio PC

[Tym Hartwich]

I’ve been bitten sometimes by going for the next ‘I’ number up, with your idea, but then discovering it wont upgrade. Both my computers here will not upgrade to windows 11 as the processor doesn’t meet the spec nor will the motherboard. When I bought them they were in the next box up. Always a risk going in at the bottom of the next category up, when the lower category best performers often have legs for upgrades. 10 years is very unlikely. Even 5 years is a dinosaur. In apple world, my two year old MacBook is now called legacy, and in their world, antique.

Yeah, though you get virtually 10 x the juice with a built PC than you get with a MB if you compare prices.

Good advice wqith the compatability though, I'll look into that.

 

[Tym Hartwich]

Thunderbolt has some inherent advantages over USB in that it ties directly to the PCIe lanes vs USB's "polling" system. It's not just total data rate. In a somewhat simplistic explanation, in USB, there is a buffer, and the system basically checks the buffer at intervals, dumps the buffer and moves on. If the processor is busy doing other things, it may take too long to check the USB flag, at which point you can get a buffer overrun and you can lose data which means a glitch in the audio.. The fix is to increase the buffer. That can cause latency (delay) in the sound (which can be calculated from the sample rate and the buffer size). Remember, it's a two way street, so it needs to process both up and down data. For moving a mouse or keyboard, it's not an issue. We're talking milliseconds, but in some cases, it can become significant. If you start getting over 10-20 ms in delay, some people notice a loss in response time.

Thunderbolt is able to tell the processor to process it's data, rather than waiting for the system to come back around the block. This means You can use smaller buffers and minimize the wait time between data transfers. The two technologies are now converging, so in a generation or so, there won't be any difference. Apple has been on Thunderbolt for a long time (and Firewire before that). The new Intel 690 and 790 chipsets support Thunderbolt. The key will be if the proper drivers are available.

It sounds like you're just starting out. If you are looking at a small Focusrite Scarlett interface, then you're talking USB. Thunderbolt interfaces tend to be more expensive, although that is changing. For USB interfaces, I've heard lots of people singing the praises of the Moto M4. Don't fall into the trap of getting a Solo or other single channel interface. The day will come that you'll want to record an acoustic guitar with 2 mics, and have someone sing. BINGO! You're out of inputs. 4 is the minimum I would consider, but I have 8 on my setup. Drummers can use up that whole thing.

With regards to the drives, I have a TB SSD and a 2TB Barracuda. It's served me fine for years. I've been upgrading systems to SSD and it is a huge improvement. A system that once took a minute and a half to boot up does so in about 10 seconds. No noise, no heat. I have two 4TB Seagate externals, and I can back up all my data, and clone the OS drive and STILL have room. I don't know how many songs you're planning but some of my bigger sessions are only 18GB total, and that's mix data, and several hours of multichannel audio. You can hold 2 or 3 hundred of those on a single back up drive for about $90.

The computer you are looking at should easily last 5-7 years. My system, a measly Lenovo H50 is 8 years old and still running fine. The demands of audio processing shouldn't increase dramatically. Where video has gone from 480i to 720p to 4K to 8k, audio won't be going much beyond the current max 384K. 192K and 24bit is more than sufficient for just about anything. The only increase I see in the near future would be going to full 32bit floating point. Current systems can handle that pretty easily.

I don't know much about Bandlab, but I would recommend you look at Reaper. It's cheap, free to try for 60 days, resource efficient and has great support. You can use as a basic recording setup, or get as complicated as you want. I looked at Ardour, but didn't like the workflow. I've used Cubase SE, and it was ok, but I really prefer Reaper.

Hmmmm. I'll look more into Thunderbolt. The mobos that I was looking at all support Thunderbolt I think, so the option will be available to me should I make the choice to go down that route. Might do it if my budget allows...

Drives, yeah. That's basically what I am doing, SSD for system + HDD for files.

I've seen people recommend Reaper a LOT now, sounds like there's something special about it huh?

 

[Tym Hartwich]

I could easily be wrong here but, I have read that Thunderbolt on Windows MOBOs is not really up to snuff yet?

In any case, USB 2.0 will do everything you are likely to want. The trick is, get the right interface with good drivers. As I said, RME is pretty much king of the hill for super stable USB drivers and very low latency. Next in probably equal second are MOTU and, in my experience Native Instruments. If you can find a second hand NI KA6 that will serve you very well for a time at least.

The latest ultra low latency system is Ethernet. Dante and a couple of others. Not only is latency very low but the link cables can be very much longer than USB or TB.

Dave.

Oof, I'll consider that.

Currently I'm in a situation where Ethernet would be kinda difficult as the router isn't even close to my room...

 

[Tym Hartwich]

I might be off base, but if Tym's worrying about exceeding a budget of 1.100€ for the computer, he's not going to be looking at RME or UA. Pricing for something like a Babyface or Apollo is in the 800-1000€ range. Even an M4 might be more than he's planning to commit to the project. I might be more inclined to hunt for a used Scarlett 18i8 for 300 than to spend 200 on a Motu M2. I won't even bother with a Scarlett Solo!

We all try to look for the bargains, especially starting out. What we sometime overlook is what our future needs will be. When I bought my first digital recorder (AW16G) I was in a position that I could plug in 8 mics and hit record. It came it handy for several recordings. It was more than I needed when I recorded a jazz ensemble in a 2 channel setup. My 4 channel tape deck let me put up a pair of mics, plus a spot mic on the piano of a choir recording. It wasn't enough for a 4 piece band plus vocals, when I didn't have a good mixer!

What we don't know if what type of recording he plans to do. Is it going to be a lot of keyboards in-the-box and a rap vocal? Will it be collection of real instruments? A bluegrass session will be different from an electronica synth piece. These things have a bearing on what you need, but in the end, its better to have capabilities you only use a few times, than to constantly wishing you had the ability to do something but don't have the equipment to do so.

Oh it's not gonna be real instruments for sure, at least for the forseeable future. Perhaps that might change over the years as I meet new people, who knows?

That's why I won't need a crazy AI with dozens of slots for now.

I'm very much interested in all things computer-generated, the only thing I'll be recording is vocals.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

Drives, yeah. That's basically what I am doing, SSD for system + HDD for files.

That's why I won't need a crazy AI with dozens of slots for now.

I'm not sure I get this Tym. If I never see another spinning drive again I'd be really happy A lot of folks in my industry swear by the Samsung T7 drives. That not to mention they're pretty affordable. I've got 4 or 5 of them now and just will never go back. For the gargantuan libraries like Spitfire and Heavyocity, they load exponentially faster and just plain purr. I originally had a Spitfire library on a Glyph HHD and the legato string patch took almost 4 minutes to load. The Samsung takes about 10 seconds. File transfers of any kind are blindingly fast. I have two for my audio drives and they never break a sweat. They're fast, run cool (I can actually stack them), are silent and their footprint is tiny.

Just my two cents but spinning hard drives offer little advantages over the newer SSDs

 

[ecc83]

Oof, I'll consider that.

Currently I'm in a situation where Ethernet would be kinda difficult as the router isn't even close to my room...

No mate! "Etherenet" audio is nothing to do with routers or the internet, it is a system for sending shedloads of channels down CAT5e+ cables. I mentioned it just to give a more complete picture of the current 'state of the art'.

You are just going to be recording voice for now? All the interfaces do far mentioned have very decent microphone pre amps and will be fine with a dynamic mic. Very common for 'professional' vocals is the Large Diaphragm Capacitor (aka "condenser") mic but microphones are WHOLE other can of wriggly things!

Dave.

 

[TAE]

Less is more ...GAS (Gear acquisition syndrome) is an ego thing. If the goal is to get recording keep it simple.
I built my first PC in 1996. I've built at least 30 since then but quit building around 10 years ago when the I-series chips were blowing up the market.
If you want to build a PC Anandtech is still a great place to get information on benchmarks....but for a recording PC today I wouldn't personally bother.
Windows or Mac you can pick up a plenty powerful PC already built ..The only thing I hate about them is the bloatware Ihave to remove other than that No way would I bother building one...But I get it if you haven't built one before, it's a challenge and a feeling of accomplishment in doing so...I wasted a lot of time I could have been playing and recording being a computer nerd.

Reaper is so resource friendly.. Plugs can be or they can be huge hogs

I agree current i-5 chip is way more than you'll need with the interface within your budget
100% SSD
all the rest is how much you like XYZ over ZYX and every manufacture has their Kool Aid to drink... You might study the Fineas and Billy Eilish home studio video which is Mac and Logic Pro based... They kind of did well with that multi grammy winning set up LOL ...maybe the content and his earlier child celebrity status helped

 

[TalismanRich]

Rich. As I said, just an impression I gathered from things on forums re TB.
I am not suggesting the OP goes into debt for an RME interface I am simply stating that they are very highly regarded in the industry (AFAICT!) and so to point him that way. I DID suggest two budget starter devices, the 204HD and a second hand KA6. I have little experience with Focusrite except that I have a Mk1 8i6 I never use now. The mixer software totally defeats me!

Dave.

Dave, I've been looking more deeply into the WIntel Thunderbolt issues, and it appears that the biggest problem is that PC Thunderbolt does not support TB1 or TB2. Microsoft never supported TB1 or 2, so there's no legacy drivers available. Apple motherboards have included the controller chips for TB 1 and 2 since MacOS has supported the system all along.

As I said, it's going to be important to make sure that any TB interface to be used on a PC has expressly provided support for that system. That means that a lot of old legacy TB gear will not be compatible. Interfaces will need to be TB 3 or 4 to work with a PC, and most likely need to be running Win 11. That's probably where the reports of not being up to snuff originate.

Since Tym is really starting at the beginning, and most of the instrumental work will be done ITB, then midi will probably be the main means for composing. Whether that is via midi input on the interface, or via USB midi will depend on the devices he will use. If it's something like the Yamaha keyboards which have USB ports, then the interface won't even come into play except for recording the vocals and playback, and for that USB will be perfectly acceptable.

As for DANTE and ethernet, I agree, it's not even in the picture here. It doesn't sound like he will need to run long lines of audio, or handle dozens of channels at a time which is precisely what DANTE is designed for.

I see what you are saying... I'm still willing to take that risk, and I actually think that the experience in forums is a different thing because who's gonna come here and say "my build went awesome"? It's mostly the negative experiences that are being talked about, and I'm not gonna let that stop me

AI looks good, gonna give that some thinking and collect some more opinions as well.

Thank you for your advice!

Tym, at this point, based on what you have said, I would recommend going for a basic USB interface with at least two mic inputs. While you might not be planning to do real instruments, things often change. Don't box yourself in by saving $50 on a Solo type interface. Depending on your keyboard/controller system you may need to have an interface with midi inputs. And finally, while I personally use Reaper, I do about 90% of my recording with mics, guitars, bass, some drums, and vocals. The only ITB instruments are the drum VSTs. If you are assembling samples, and triggering instruments, you may be better off with Ableton. It seems to be designed for that type of work. Check out some videos on using Ableton Live Lite before you commit. Plus you can always have both systems on your computer.

When you're up and running let us know how things are going.

 

[ecc83]

Morning Rich, yes, I knew there was some sort of buggeration with TB and Windows but as you say, not going to bother Tym at the moment.

As far as MIDI ports on AIs is concerned, IMHO they should always be present. Historically they always were right back to Old IDE SBlaster cards. It really is penny pinching in the extreme for mnfctrs to omit them.
Why? Well because, especially in this case where cash is tight, Tym might find some older MIDI gear, a drum machine say that does not sport USB. I agree most controllers/kbds these days have USB and quite often DIN MIDI out as well but very few budget ones have MIDI in so you are stuffed in connecting another device if the AI does not have the ports.

With regard to Ableton and a possible issue with audio recording? Just use Audacity and export then import as .wav into Abe.

Dave.

 

[Tym Hartwich]

Drives, yeah. That's basically what I am doing, SSD for system + HDD for files.

I'm not sure I get this Tym. If I never see another spinning drive again I'd be really happy A lot of folks in my industry swear by the Samsung T7 drives. That not to mention they're pretty affordable. I've got 4 or 5 of them now and just will never go back. For the gargantuan libraries like Spitfire and Heavyocity, they load exponentially faster and just plain purr. I originally had a Spitfire library on a Glyph HHD and the legato string patch took almost 4 minutes to load. The Samsung takes about 10 seconds. File transfers of any kind are blindingly fast. I have two for my audio drives and they never break a sweat. They're fast, run cool (I can actually stack them), are silent and their footprint is tiny.

Just my two cents but spinning hard drives offer little advantages over the newer SSDs

Well, the HDD is a recommendation that I've seen that could potentially be outdated as of now.

T7 looks great, does pack a hefty price though if I want to go for the 4TB

I'll think about it -- thank you for the tip!

 

[Tym Hartwich]

No mate! "Etherenet" audio is nothing to do with routers or the internet, it is a system for sending shedloads of channels down CAT5e+ cables. I mentioned it just to give a more complete picture of the current 'state of the art'.

You are just going to be recording voice for now? All the interfaces do far mentioned have very decent microphone pre amps and will be fine with a dynamic mic. Very common for 'professional' vocals is the Large Diaphragm Capacitor (aka "condenser") mic but microphones are WHOLE other can of wriggly things!

Dave.

Ohh, alright.

Yeah, I actually want to get a condenser though!

But AI's are for another day, I'm trying to get that PC built first of all

 

[Tym Hartwich]

Dave, I've been looking more deeply into the WIntel Thunderbolt issues, and it appears that the biggest problem is that PC Thunderbolt does not support TB1 or TB2. Microsoft never supported TB1 or 2, so there's no legacy drivers available. Apple motherboards have included the controller chips for TB 1 and 2 since MacOS has supported the system all along.

As I said, it's going to be important to make sure that any TB interface to be used on a PC has expressly provided support for that system. That means that a lot of old legacy TB gear will not be compatible. Interfaces will need to be TB 3 or 4 to work with a PC, and most likely need to be running Win 11. That's probably where the reports of not being up to snuff originate.

Since Tym is really starting at the beginning, and most of the instrumental work will be done ITB, then midi will probably be the main means for composing. Whether that is via midi input on the interface, or via USB midi will depend on the devices he will use. If it's something like the Yamaha keyboards which have USB ports, then the interface won't even come into play except for recording the vocals and playback, and for that USB will be perfectly acceptable.

As for DANTE and ethernet, I agree, it's not even in the picture here. It doesn't sound like he will need to run long lines of audio, or handle dozens of channels at a time which is precisely what DANTE is designed for.




Tym, at this point, based on what you have said, I would recommend going for a basic USB interface with at least two mic inputs. While you might not be planning to do real instruments, things often change. Don't box yourself in by saving $50 on a Solo type interface. Depending on your keyboard/controller system you may need to have an interface with midi inputs. And finally, while I personally use Reaper, I do about 90% of my recording with mics, guitars, bass, some drums, and vocals. The only ITB instruments are the drum VSTs. If you are assembling samples, and triggering instruments, you may be better off with Ableton. It seems to be designed for that type of work. Check out some videos on using Ableton Live Lite before you commit. Plus you can always have both systems on your computer.

When you're up and running let us know how things are going.

That's about what I was thinking to get for an AI.

Yeah, I've seen people use Ableton and I really like the UI and feel of it. Probably gonna get Ableton + something else.

Will keep y'all updated

 

[rob aylestone]

The biggest annoyance for me in the past is usb3 ports on motherboards. Never enough, and because I have an interface that needs a FireWire port, that meant wasting a slot too. My video card takes up two slots, width wise, so these mechanical things meant many nice boards were out. Ethernet speed is another bottleneck. Two computers, feeding the same NAS drive and the same fast fibre broadband link, and one downloads faster than the other. Is that processor or the cheap ethernet chipset?