My rent house has no earth ground

toadies

New member
Uhhh this is bad. I thought i just had a bad ground. But my roomate thinks this place doesnt' even have a earth ground.

Makes since.

Anyway playing guitars and touching mics you will shock your self.

Also i would have my bass pluged in my digi001 and my brother was showing my a bass riff and he would shock him self if he touches both guitars at same time.

He is pluged in to a different outlet.

So what advices do you guys have?
 
I beleive you can make a safety issue case about that with the owner... I suggest you talk to him and failing that, your local building code office.
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
I beleive you can make a safety issue case about that with the owner... I suggest you talk to him and failing that, your local building code office.

alright thanks.
 
Go buy one of the little outlet testers.

Also... I try to keep all the musical equipment on the same circuit avoid the shocking as much as possible.

I can garantee that it's against code to have a three prong outlet with no ground wire hooked up.
 
Some houses, especially older ones, are "grandfathered" from current UEC or NEC codes.

You can't "force" the landlord to upgrade it - unless he's trying to sell it.
 
Call your utility company and request one. It's just a long metal rod driven into the ground and hooked up to your power connect...
 
Couple of suggestions. It is entirely possible that you do not have an earth ground.
BTW, usually, grounds from the supply are connected to water pipes.
Even if you are not electrically inclined there are some things you can verify just by
looking. Is this a very old house?

First, if you know where the electrical supply box is, go look at it.

1. Look at how many wires are coming from the pole to the pipe sticking out of the roof, in turn that is connected to the supply box below... Should be 3 wires. I have seen old houses with a single phase(2 wires). With 3 wires, you have 2 hot wires and a neutral. The 2 hot wires are out of phase with each other. If you measured from each hot to the neutral, you have approx 120 volts. If you measured across the 2 hot wires you would have approx. 240 volts. Make sense? If there are only 2, you do not have 240 in the house, and may not have a ground either.
2. Open the cover and see if you have the old round type fuses or circuit breakers?
3. Look on the outside of the box. Do you see a bare wire running to a clamp on a water pipe nearby? Is it corroded at the clamp? I've seen them even disconnected or broke too.
4. Look at the outlets in the room. Are all of them the 3 prong type(2 straight and 1 gound hole per plug? Or just 2 straight holes per plug? Or a combination. I've seen a combinations of outlets in the same room many times also.
5. Look at the amps. Do they have polarity switchs?
First scenario:
Ok, this is the reason I asked you to look at the wires on the pole. IF, and I've seen it done many times, a homeowner or someone, without permits, did some electrical work on the house, they may have hooked up 2 or more outlets in one room to one phase of the supply.(120v) Then they hooked another outlet in the SAME room to the other phase(120v also). However, IF you measured across from the hot pin on an outlet connected to Phase "A", and a hot pin on an outlet connected to Phase "B", you have a potential of 240 freaking volts. NO GOOD....ie...can kill you if you have old outlets with only 2 holes and no ground. I almost got killed in a kitchen with this scenario. Knocked me on my ass good. Modern kitchens are wired like this. Lord knows why. I even asked the NEC about this potential and they scratched their head. Go figure. Probably it would require total failure of the grounding system.

Second scenario:
Do your amps have a 3 prong plug on the power cord. Many of the older and even some new amps only have a 2 prong plug. IE NO GROUND. What they do have is a POLARITY SWITCH. Some have a power switch you can throw from center, to either direction to switch polarity. Some, like old fender amps have a polarity swich on the back of the amp. One of the two amps you are using, has a reversed polarity, OR, they are on another phase, STILL with reversed polarity.

Third scenario:
You have the old type room outlets(2 hole, no ground) but one or more of your amps have 3 prong power plugs, and you have inserted a 3 pin, to 2 pin adaptors. And one of the adaptors is turned around. Causes reversed polarity. In other words, your amp chassi, becomes the hot side in relationship to the guitar plugs. IE.....no ground.

Fourth scenario:
Someone has changed old 2 prong outlets, to the newer 3 prong type, but had no ground wire to hook up, so the ground prong is dead. NO GROUND.
Fifth scenario
A ground wire has inadvertantly got cut, disconnected, or plain not hooked up. I've seen old houses where the ground wire was seperate from the romex, and was run from out let to outlet, daisy chain, across the studs before they sheetrocked the room.
As they nailed the sheetrock, believe it or not, they severed the ground with a sheetrock nail. Took me 4 days to find THAT one. ARRGGGGGGGRRRR!!
Any of the above scenarios, and there may be more, are severe. My suggestion is to make the observations above, report back and let us know what you find. OR, simply do as spankenstein said. Use a multiple outlet strip, connected to ONE outlet in the room. That will at least garantee the audio gear is on the same phase. It does NOTHING to garantee a ground exists. This is serious stuff and shouldn't be fooled around with by renters. If you are not familiar with electricity, have someone qualified, or maybe the owner can call some one, to check for ground in the house.

But at least make the observations, as some of those will eliminate some scenarios.
Then maybe we can Really help. Some people may dispute my theorys. Here is my disclaimer. I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. Only my experiences with electricity are reflected in my suggestions. Let THEM figure it out in that case.
fitZ :)
 
subtractor said:
Call your utility company and request one. It's just a long metal rod driven into the ground and hooked up to your power connect...

A house ground is easy to find, all you have to do is look outside at the power feed coming in, there should be a thick bare wire coming down the side of the structure that attaches to either a steel pipe or a thick rod, driven into the ground. Often this stuff gets painted when the house painter monkeys come through, so you might have to look closely.

If you have no ground, all you really need to do is ground the breaker box casing. This is done by attaching a thick cable to the box via an electrical clamp, running the wire through the wall, to a steel pipe or copper rod driven about 3' into the ground. Rods are easy to hammer into the ground, pipes require a lot more effort. Feel free to use a miter saw with a metal cutting blade to make an angled end and drive that into the ground. Trust me, thats much easier.

Years ago (many, many, many years ago) there were no house grounds, what was done is the "ground" was directly tied to "neutral", and the black wire remains "hot". This of course has been outlawed almost everywhere because off accidental fires, deaths, and other problems associated with idiots reversing hot and neutral, thus making the "ground" = "hot".

Black, hot
white, neutral
green, ground.
 
:confused: :confused: :confused:
[QUOTE"Years ago (many, many, many years ago) there were no house grounds, what was done is the "ground" was directly tied to "neutral", and the black wire remains "hot". This of course has been outlawed almost everywhere because off accidental fires, deaths, and other problems associated with idiots reversing hot and neutral, thus making the "ground" = "hot". [/QUOTE]

Hello frederic, hmmmm, maybe you can clarify something for me. I have a total DIFFERENT opinion. EVERY single supply box I've ever worked on, has a neutral buss bar that is GROUNDED. Makes the "ground and neutral the same potential" is what I've been told. AND, all the grounds are bare copper, which are attatched to the neutral, as well as the white neutral leads. Even my old house which had the wierdest neutral buss I've ever seen, had a bare copper wire, running to a water pipe from the neutral buss!
Yes, I've seen both green grounds as well as bare, and ground rods, but still have ALWAYS been led to believe the neutral is grounded. Man, whats going on here?

PLEASE CLARIFY......otherwise I've been led up a path that I don't know the destination. Even the house I just moved into has a grounded neutral. Otherwise..?
how do you put neutral at the same potential?

THANKS!
fitZ
:)
ps
A house ground is easy to find, all you have to do is look outside at the power feed coming in, there should be a thick bare wire

I understand that, but what about the other end inside the box? I've seen seperate buss's for ground, but there has always been a tie to neutral. I'm really confused.
 
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We're both right.

*I* wasn't clear.

The neutral is tied to earth ground for lightning protection and to provide a path for any high voltage leakage from the power company's step down transformer. The ground is tied to the neutral to provide a return path to trip the breaker in the event of a fault.

This interconnection between the service ground and the neutral is only in the main panel/first disconnect. Any subsequent wiring has separate conductors for neutral and equipment ground and there is no interconnection downstream of the main panel. The main panel is the tie point where ground and neutral connects together.

I left off the word "outlet". It was common practice a half a century ago to tie ground on the outlet to neutral on the outlet, thus creating a safety hazard AND the opportunity for hum. The main breaker box should be the only point where neutral/ground need to be connected. Ever.

Sorry for leaving off the word. I keep assuming y'all can read my mind when I type as fast as I do.

Did you know that in subpanels with or without breakers, the neutral buss bar should not be tied to the grounded enclosure?

Anyway, electrical outlet testers cannot test neutral/ground swaps, as you should have 120V (USA) between hot and neutral, and hot and ground.

In a properly wired system you should never need a ground eliminator adaptor, a ground lift switch, or have to disconnect ground from an outlet. Never!

The biggest cause of hum is one (or more) of three things:

1. Ground and neutral reversed on an outlet somewhere.
2. All the gear spread over different circles, thus forming a ground loop.
3. Neutral resistance - poor connections, corroded connections, mixing aluminum wire with copper wire, et al, where the neutral line has a higher resistance than it should.




Hope that helps.
 
Hello frederic, thank you so much for that clarification. I knew something was "missing". I also know you are VERY knowledgable with the electrical stuff. Thats why I WAS NOT disagreeing with you. It had to be a little ole misunderstanding:D Besides, with electrical stuff its best that ALL the info be absolutely clear in my book. Otherwise, someone might get hurt, start a fire, get pisssd, come back and verbally kick my ass.!

Anyway, thought I'd just get that cleared up. Thanks again my friend.

fitZ
 
Did you know that in subpanels with or without breakers, the neutral buss bar should not be tied to the grounded enclosure?

One more thing for my own understanding frederic. Why? Different potentials, ground loops or something of that nature?

fitZ


OOPS......I think I figured it out. DUH! But please answer so I'm not assuming ANYTHING. Thanks again frederic.
 
Fitz, I am an electrician, you cannot "bond" or ground the neutral bar in a subpanel because it is a safety hazard if you lose the neutral feeding it, then you are hosing the full load right to ground.
Other sources of hum can be dimmer switches and flourescent lights.
Subpanel is when you run out of room in your main panel, just to clarify, and the main panel neutral is always bonded to ground.
 
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Well, slap my britches. Its about time you showed up. A real 'lectrician huh? Where were you when I was spitin in the wind. I mean we been waitin for you 3 days:D Ha!
Hey, cool, welcome to the bbs. And thanks for the reply. I know enough bout the "lectrons" to get myself in trouble if I open my mouth too far. But I try to help where I can. IF I blow it, I know I'll hear 'bout it from some of the members here. But I'm usually not too far off. I've wired three phase shops a couple times, but that don't put no credentials on my wall. Or money in my 'count. Anyway, thanks. I know who to give a 'holla to if I need it from the horses mouth, so to speak.

So let me see if I understand this. If you "lose the neutral feeding it".... You mean if something causes the neutral to be disconnected BEFORE the subpanel? Or just loose it anyway it happens...or.....please clarify this if you would. I don't understand the context of "hose the whole load".....what load are you refering to if you lose the neutral? Doesn't that just shut the whole sub panel down? Like if I simply disconnected the neutral wire at the supply? What am I missing here? I know there is some little detail(I'm sure its staring me in the face) but....still...I'm missing.. ,, Hmmm. DOH!
(BIG lightbulb goes on)

IF, the Neutral buss at the subpanel is bonded to the box...and the box is grounded. and you loose the neutral......then the load doesn't give a shit....it says.....GIVE ME ALL YA GOT! Right? HOSE JOB. OOOOOOOOOHH..shit. GOTCHA. Cool. learn sumpthin new evryaday.! Hey George......go back and untie that bond on the sub..wil ya.:D Damn. I told him not to do that! Heehehehe!.....HEY< wait a minute there....doesn't the hot feed from the supply have a breaker in the supply panel?.....man...Now I'm really gettin confused.....
Ok, from now on....I'll leave the 'lectrical to the 'lectrictians....but ya gotta be here!
fitz
:rolleyes:
Hey frederic, I know yer here all the time....just havein some funnin!
 
Toadies, I can't really help but I have to say, that shock is the WORST/GROSSEST feeling on earth. I remember the feeling when I jammed at an ex-drummer's house. I remember touching the bass, getting shocked, and freaking out.
 
I had a studio in a house with no ground many years ago. I replaced the two-prong outlets in the room with grounded outlets. The bathroom was right on the other side of the wall, so I ran a ground wire to a cold water pipe -- problem solved.

This is a familiar practice in ham radio circles. Even if the house is grounded, station operators will ground the radio equipment and the outlets they are using to a common ground, often a nearby cold water pipe.

:cool:
 
Beck said:
I had a studio in a house with no ground many years ago. I replaced the two-prong outlets in the room with grounded outlets. The bathroom was right on the other side of the wall, so I ran a ground wire to a cold water pipe -- problem solved.

This is a familiar practice in ham radio circles. Even if the house is grounded, station operators will ground the radio equipment and the outlets they are using to a common ground, often a nearby cold water pipe.

:cool:

That may have solved your problem but is illegal as hell. If your house burns down and that ground has anything to do with it you've just bought yourself a house.

2002 NEC, Article 250.52 Grounding Electrodes

"(A) Electrodes permitted for grounding.

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 meters or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors.

Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 meters (5 feet) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system."




Also, I hope Fredericks post above about a "3-foot groundrod" was a typo. Ground rods are 8-feet long and need to be driven in as far as possible in most instances.

The NEC identifies the "neutral" as the GROUNDED Conductor, while the conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode (groundrod, in this case) is called the GROUNDING CONDUCTOR.

Simple, huh?:)

I would suggest before doing any mods at all you consult the 2002 National Electric Code, Article 250. And a licensed electrician wouldn't be a bad idea, either.
 
National Code

A bare grounding conductor must go from the main panel to the incoming cold water pipe and 2 external ground rods more than 6 ft. apart. If you install a subpanel, an additional 2 rods must be installed and not another cold water clamp.

Fitz, if you lose a neutral (oxidation, corrosion, loose connection from 18" subs pounding) there is no return path to the transformer for "alternating current". So, if you have 8 plugs on a 20 amp circuit breaker with your amplifier for those 18" subs plugged into one of the plugs, (and you lost neutral feed at subpanel) the neutral wire from your plug circuit is looking to complete the ciruit (somewhere to go, the path of least resistance), if you bond your neutral bar to ground, guess what?
You are correct!

So here is what can happen: You are watering the flower bed under your meter can barefoot with the garden hose, and whammo! you just gave that lonely neutral the path of least resistance, from your foot near the sub panel ground rod through your hand to the cold water pipe that is bonded to the main panel's neutral bar. Science is cool! That is in theory, your mileage may vary.

So why do you bond the main panel neutral to ground? Safety, you use a much smaller wire for cold water and ground rods than the main neutral, thus the larger neutral wire is always?
Correct! The path of least resistance.

So, in my opinion, national code demands this because there are no length restrictions on how far you can run a feed for a sub panel, but the main Service Entrance Cable for the main panel cannot exceed 3' inside the house. So there is way more margin for error on a subpanel feeder.
Hope this helps the confusion, and roll the crossover off around 70 hz not 40, much less mechanical damaging vibration, and you might not find yourself smoldering in the flower garden again!
posting more soon with new MP3s for people to criticize, Jason
 
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3 meters, not feet, on the ground pipe.

I'll stop posting until I no longer need medication, my fingers are just not following my brain any longer.

You never want the ground line to pass current in place of the neutral. Aside from a fire hazzard, its a fast way to kill yourself.

Fire, and death, is generally a bad thing :)

Even though one is allowed to use a cold water pipe as a ground, I never would, and the reasons are simple.

If the cold water pipe entering the house were to break, at the basement wall lets say, you are no longer grounded.

Very unlikely, but why take a chance? I can guarrentee your insurance company would fight paying out the value of your home and belongings if they discovered this, code or not.

Use a new pipe, outside, and you're covered in all respects.
 
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