My new setup-

F

FredFredrickson

New member
So I'm buying my new setup- after this thread:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=275979

and I just want some last minute advice on this.

Unless somebody says otherwise, I'm replacing the Beringer mixer and mic in this setup:

Shure beta 87a -> Beringer mixer (not sure model) -> M-Audio Delta 4/4

With:

Shure KSM27 Studio Cardioid Condenser -> M-Audio AudioBuddy -> M-Audio Delta 4/4

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--THKMIMAB0 M-Audio AudioBuddy
http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--SHUKSM27 Shure KSM27

Thoughts? Better sound for vocals? No difference?

Edit: I should add that my main focus is better vocal recordings.
 
I'd definitely get a decent outboard compressor. The only one I can really recommend still readily available is the ART PRO VLA, that is unless you want to go down the goofy broadcast compressor path that I have. Also, consider some room treatment. Nothing kills vocals like standing soundwaves.
 
Is there truely any advantage to an outboard compressor vs a VST software compressor?

Edit: Let me rephrase: Is there any advantage that actually makes the compressor worth about the price of the mic? Or could I get by just fine with software compressors?

As for room treatment- I've got a booth which is pretty small, with sound proofing on two of the four walls, I've tried all four, but two sound the best. Is there an optimal distance I should be from the microphone when singing to pick up MORE/LESS ambient noise?
 
My 2 cents!

Hey Fred, I checked out your mp3. Your vocals don't sound bad, but I think I know what might be your problem as to why they don't sound like you want them to sound.

First off, if you are trying to get those crispy clean vocals like you hear on the radio, it's very challenging to get that exact sound from hundred dollar equipment, when they are using high grade thousand dollar equipment. And to be honest with you, if you are comparing your songs to the songs on the radio, those songs are mastered in mastering houses, where they are using a million dollar facility to get that sound.

Second off, your signal chain affects your vocals also. Meaning if you are using cheap or standard mic cables, cheap pre amps, compressors, and cheap sound cards, trust me when I say, it will affect your vocals as well. The Beringher mixers are cheaply made, and they have low grade preamps. The best cables on the market are the Monster and Mogami cables. They both have lifetime warranties as well. So I suggest if you are not using either one of these, then get some. You can still use your mixer, but my suggestion is to get an external preamp. If you're on a tight budget, you can get the Presonus Blue Tube Mic Pre for $150 to $200 bucks.

It has a good warm sound. Now, as far as your mic, from my experience, the type of mic and price of the mic makes a difference. I am sorry, many disagree, but a $50 mic sounds different from a $300, $300 from a $1000, etc. They aren't expensive for no reason. They are engineered differently. If that wasn't the case, then they wouldn't use them in the still existing Top Notch Studios. I would look into a tube mic. Personally, I use a Rode NTK and a Sterling ST-66, and they both sound phenomenal to me. To me Tube is better than FET mics if it's below $800. But I also have a great ART external channel strip and Mogami cables, going into a Delta 66. Which brings me to my last point.

Your Sound Card. The Delta 44 is a good card, but I've done extensive research on the Delta 44/66/1010, and the truth is....the Delta 1010 (the most expensive of the three) has a better sound than both of the 44/66. The reason why is because of the a/d converters. They are better in the 1010 for various technical reasons. My point is, the cheaper the sound card, the cheaper the a/d converters, and that also affects your vocals. So what I did, I started recording SPDIF with my Delta 66, and my sound has improved tremendously! This bypasses the A/D converters. The 44 doesn't have that option.

I guess what I am trying to say, is if you want that killer Vocal sound, you will either have to invest in mid to top dollar equipment, or do a lot of spec research and find good sounding equipment that is within your price range. And mixing skills, cause EQ's work wonders if you know how to use it, but you have to understand frequencies and how to sweep for the unwanted ones.
Oh and for the last question you asked, distance depends on the type of singer. Average is 3 inches between the Mic and Popper, and 4 to 6 inches between the popper and singer. But just about every room (if it is not professionally treated) will create unwanted room frequencies. (This is where mixing skills come into play). Play with your mic placement also, because depending on the dynamics of the vocal, if you are singing dead into the mic, you could be overloading the mic ring. You might want point the mic to the bridge of your nose, or slightly turn the mic right or left, and see if that helps. Also, you can try pointing the mic in all four directions in that booth, and see if one of way sounds better than the other three.

Anyway, hope this helps you any.

DecKade
 
FredFredrickson said:
Is there truely any advantage to an outboard compressor vs a VST software compressor?

Edit: Let me rephrase: Is there any advantage that actually makes the compressor worth about the price of the mic? Or could I get by just fine with software compressors?

As for room treatment- I've got a booth which is pretty small, with sound proofing on two of the four walls, I've tried all four, but two sound the best. Is there an optimal distance I should be from the microphone when singing to pick up MORE/LESS ambient noise?
Click to expand...

Alot of peaple far more qualified than me have said that you are actually better off with good compressor plugins over cheap out board ones, that being said I have found it much easier to get good sounds out of my old symetrix compressor and my RNC.

So I suspect that when you know what you are doing (I don't) you get the best sound quality with plugins over cheap outboard but it alway seems easier with the outboard.

If you can get your hands on them, the old symetrix comp (with a toggle switch for power instead of the button) or an RNC will treat you right.
 
deckade said:
it's very challenging to get that exact sound from hundred dollar equipment, when they are using high grade thousand dollar equipment.
Click to expand...

understandable, but immediately raises a red BS flag to me


deckade said:
And to be honest with you, if you are comparing your songs to the songs on the radio, those songs are mastered in mastering houses, where they are using a million dollar facility to get that sound.
Click to expand...

ok, true.

deckade said:
The Beringher mixers are cheaply made, and they have low grade preamps.
Click to expand...

likely the same preamps you are going to find in any unit like it under 500 bucks... not to mention they are built just fine and work for years to come...

deckade said:
The best cables on the market are the Monster and Mogami cables.
Click to expand...

all credibility to this post has officially been lost



deckade said:
It has a good warm sound.
Click to expand...
yes, feel the starved plate goodness :rolleyes:


jeez.

the idea in the OP is a solid one. The m-audio audiobuddy doesnt pretend to be anything except a decent solid state preamp. Good quality sound with a decent range.

work on your ability to mix the vocals, this will make all the difference, even with cheaper hardware.

dont buy into the hype.
 
+1 on what jasonbmerrill said. deckade seems a little mixed up. The audio buddy will be a great pre and you will not be able to do much better than that untill you spend alot more.(ALOT!!) That tube over fet @ under $800 thing is flat out wrong, maybe even backwards. Whatever differences there are between the m-audio a/d converters in there interfaces is a non issue. Yea and I guess Kimber Cable and Canare should just close shop because Monster and Mogami are the only worthwhile cables!

I don't want to be to hard on deckade as this is his first post, but I think he like me is at a stage in the game where he should be reading in this forum more than writing.
 
Rust E-Z said:
That tube over fet @ under $800 thing is flat out wrong, maybe even backwards.
Click to expand...

I think you're right on this. Sometimes the buzzy little 12ax7 in the front end of these things just adds a harshness to the signal path.

And to clarify, I did mean a good quality external compressor. Having a nice limiter can help with recording more than vocals as well.

Also, after going back and rereading, the Beta 87 isn't a terrible mic. Why don't you try upgrading to a high quality preamp, you'll literally never regret it, something with a transformer in it. Hold onto the mic for a bit and try it in the new preamp.

Try something like... http://cgi.ebay.com/Altec-1589B-mic...4|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

or...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Altec-1592B-Mix...4|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Those old broadcast FET amps are a steal and people like Altec overbuilt everything. A new preamp will give your mic new life.
 
We talked about the KSM-27 in the other thread a little. I have one, but haven't used it much. I *suspect* it would sound good with your voice, based on the clips you posted. I have to say this: poke around the board some, and you'll see a fair number of complaints about these LDC KSM mics breaking and not working -- I bought mine in a busted condition, thinking I could fix it for very little money by replacing a capacitor or something -- I wound up having to order a new circuit board from Shure, but it was only ~$35 and was pretty easy to install. Also on the bright side, their customer service was absolutely top notch, and I didn't even have a warranty, so that's something. Just keep this in mind - if yours is under warranty, my guess is that they would turn it around very quickly, but you could be without it for a few days (and that's only if it breaks, of course) -- your geeky buddy with a soldering iron (or you, if that's you :) ) probably won't be able to fix it without the new board.

Also, based on your clips, I think the Oktava MK-319 might be great - these are easier to get used than new, and QC is spotty (I have three, and one was not even usable when I got it), but when they work, they work well, and they can be modified (by you or your geeky buddy, or by a few commercial modification services, including oktavamod.com ) to be very nice. If you have any interest in modifying mics yourself, this is a much better choice than the KSM-27, which uses minute circuitry that defies the efforts of hobbyists to tweak it.

When considering other large diaphragm condenser mics, there's one issue you want to research with the audiobuddy, and that's the strength of the phantom power it puts out -- nominally 48 volts, you should check it with a multimeter if you can -- if it's substantially less (like 45 or lower), then it could be a problem for some power-hungry mics -- multipattern condensers seem to want more juice than fixed pattern (like the two we just discussed). I've tried both the KSM-27 and MK-319 at "inadequate" and good voltage, and it doesn't make a noticeable difference to me, but I have, for instance, an AKG C414B-ULS (multipattern, with beefy circuitry), and the difference is glaring - much better at the full 48 volts.

I've never used an audiobuddy, but I have used a m-audio DMP3 and DMP2, and I'm assuming the preamp is similar (the DMP3 has good phantom power, and the DMP2 is a little short) -- I'm with the folks who are asserting that you'll do fine with it for some time. This is almost certainly true if you stick with these higher output mics we've been discussing. If you switch over to lower output dynamics, it may still be fine, but if it's noisy then you'll have a bigger issue to contend with because the signal to noise ratio will be worse than with a higher output mic (assuming the mic's not noisy, of course). Phantom power is a non-issue with dynamics, but a lot times they seem to sound better with higher input impedance on the preamp, and that may or may not be an option on the audio-buddy. If you go this route, the Shure SM7b is a favorite around here. But [in my admittedly inexperienced and limited] opinion, with your voice and setup, you'll be happier in the near term with a condenser.
 
Last edited:
The Ksm27 was my first condenser. At first I was wowed by the level of detail but after living with it awhile, I liked it much better on acoustic guitar than on vocals. Owning half a dozen other condensers now, the 27 is the last one I would sing through. I think you could do better for the money.
 
Just wanted to add that you should try as many mics as you can get your hands on. Try them in your space with your equipment and listen in context of a full mix. Too much detail is sometimes a bad thing and I find myself singing through a SM7 or a 441 more times than not.
 
hungovermorning said:
I'd definitely get a decent outboard compressor. The only one I can really recommend still readily available is the ART PRO VLA, that is unless you want to go down the goofy broadcast compressor path that I have. Also, consider some room treatment. Nothing kills vocals like standing soundwaves.
Click to expand...

I do use a hardware rack compressor, but I'd ONLY use it for monitoring while tracking, as 'comfort' fx for the musician. Use it as an insert if you can, don't record the compressed signal, record dry. Use a plugin for compressing the dry signal during mixdown. If you track an over-compressed signal, you're screwed. Monitor wet, but record dry. If your interface/mixer is incapable of doing that, then I wouldn't use any compression at all during tracking.

Unless you spent a shitload of $$ on a high end hardware compressor, a plugin will do a beter job anyway.
 
Enlighten Me...

Hey guys,

Thanks for not completely bashing my "opinion" I was giving the guy on his setup. I was basing my opinion from experience. I own 2 FET mics, 2 Tube Mics, the delta 44, 66, and the 1010, a beringer mixer, cheap cables, Mogami Cables, Monster cables (ok maybe they aren't the best in the world, but I love em), and ART Voice Channel, and I have a built Studio Booth Box similar to his. So with countless hours of recording, testing, trial and error, this is how I came up with my synopsis. Now I'll give you this, unless I have personally tested EVERY mic, cable, preamp, compressor, etc, on the market, I am not qualified to say what's the best and what's not, but based on what I've used, i can at least comment based on that. And that's I was trying to do.

I've seen a difference in my sound, and at one time I had the same problems he was describing with similar equipment. My "tubes" sound better than my "fet" mics, and that's based on how they sound, not just specs. I have a Rode NTK (tube), a Sterling ST-66 (tube), a Rode Nt2 (fet), and a GT-55 (fet). I notice the difference. My 1010 sounds better than my 44/66 and my Mbox 2, and I believe it's because of the A/D specifications in each one of these units (except the Mbox). I have actually seen the PDF spec sheets of the A/D chips used in the Delta units, and their is a difference in their specs. The 66/44 use the same chip, the 1010 uses a better performing one. But not even knowing all that, the 1010 sounds better to me.

Now the studios I have been in and worked in, I know what those mics, compressors, pre amps sound like. And I'm sorry, I haven't heard anything from someone's house ,yet (not even mine), sound anything like what came out of these studios, even with just the mixing stage. But I haven't heard everything in the world either. But you are right though, if you can Mix your ass off, you can get it to that level! But how many people are that good. Most people that own a Mbox, or have a home setup, record themselves, but have no idea on how to mix, not on a professional level anyway. But again, it's just my opinion from my experience. But that's also what I'm on here for, to learn and give my opinion just like everyone else. But in the end, I think that it's just that, and that's opinions! So instead of shooting my opinion down, expand on it with your expertise and your opinion. After all, I never said I was the expert.
 
antichef said:
I've been in that stage for three years now, with no sign of moving past it :D
Click to expand...

Yes but wouldn't be kind of dissapointing if you ever got to the point that you knew everything and there was no more for us to learn.

I'll glory in my ignorance, I love learning new things more than getting gear (and I really like getting gear!:D)
 
Well I found a couple neat tricks-

1. My Preamp was broken. The knob didn't work and everything was recorded with about 20% preamp. I didn't realize this, and when recording I just boosted the signal in post. After switching to a different preamp (same model mixer, but my friend had it), it has already made the difference. I may eventually need an expensive mic preamp, but the quality difference of the mic with a much louder preamp and just boosting a low signal seems to be a big difference, it seems to affect the quality of the sound, not just the volume. I'll be sticking with this preamp for a bit.. at least until I manage my technique to the limit of the hardware.

2. The Mic, I'm going to shop around some more I guess. It's hard to MIC shop, because online, you can't hear them. In the store, they all sound ok to me. I need a few weeks with it before I love/hate it. I already sold my beta 87a, so I need to buy a new one quick! It looks like the Oktava MK-319 is a bit cheaper than the shure. I'm going to see if there's anybody in the area with one I can demo. Will I be really unhappy with the KSM-27?
 
The Tube MP is a starved plate design and is apparently pretty noisy.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=215124

The Audio Buddy is also not that great in terms of noise or gain, and IIRC has an underperforming phantom power supply as well.

If you're looking for a serviceable pre for under $100 (US), I'd suggest the Peavey PV6 (or the PV8, PV10, or PV14 for progressively more money). I doubt you could come close to their sound quality for anywhere close to their price. I actually like the PV8 pres slightly better than my FW1814 pres (which I suspect are fairly similar to the DMP3, but I'm not certain), though the difference is pretty subtle.
 
Ok well, just a quick follow up. I was going to buy the ksm 27 for $299 which is it's sale price on zzounds: http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--SHUKSM27

But then I found it on Musician's friend for $199. I didn't even hesitate. If anybody else is in the market for a KSM 27, right now is the time to do it on Musician's friend:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-KSM27-Studio-Microphone?sku=270278

or even a scratch 'n dent one for $169:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=270278X
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top