MATH

I've worked with girls that were pregnant at 12. I've known a young lady who had 4 kids by the time she was 20. I have a sort of friend who had child after child, up to 7. She never really took much care of them once they were crawling but kept on having them because "she liked babies." I know many guys who had kids and weren't in the slightest bit interested in contributing to their raising and nurturing. I know enough children who haven't known who their Dads are.
Obviously there's something more important than "bonding" missing in these examples...
I don't like abortion because I hold life, however it's mandated, as sacred and none of us can tell the future.
"Particularly as a Christian" the mandate of life should be obvious to you...
Yeah, there's a likely possibility that many children born into some situations that we all hold as negative will simply reproduce the negativity that has given rise to their birth in the first place.
God promises that children will suffer the sins of their fathers, fathers, fathers...
But not one of us can predict correctly the course of the entirety of an individual's life.
But, thanks to God's word, we all know for certain the direction that should be taken...
Many of the more corrupt politicians and law-enforcement practitioners of the last century in the Western world {I won't even begin to get to Africa and Asia} came from marriages, you know.
Politically arranged unions with the propagation or attainment of power in mind... The ultimate "pre-nup".

You toss "Christianity" around like a badge of honor...
I don't see it.
 
"Particularly as a Christian" the decision to commit to marriage occurs before consummation
It certainly does. Or at least, it certainly should !
Raising children is the most important part of that decision
Well.....for some people it is. I'm not about to criticise anyone for whom it is the most important part. But not everyone thinks in those terms. Some choose not to have children, some can't, some marry too late to etc.
Any woman, especially a Hebrew, physically capable of having 15 children would have been highly praised in any era... except this one
I agree with that, but just because people praise particular actions, doesn't automatically make those actions good, right, commendable, just, sensible, practical etc. The same praise in many parts of the world is given to men who have loads of children. Yet the reality is that many of those men don't "raise" those children, either by good example or otherwise.
I think we need to be careful not to impose incorrect interpretations like the one Serendipity and I were talking about on all and sundry. Having children is an awesome responsibility. It's also a choice.
Hebrew bloodright? Inheritance? Biblical prophecy?
What Bible are you reading? What do you think the book of Numbers is all about?
You have yet to explain the points you are actually making or their relevance to the points I was making about how the Bible should or shouldn't impact American laws {or any laws of any countries, come to that}.
As for what Bible am I reading, I read from 8 translations {and you could add another 2 to them although those 2 aren't part of my biblical diet}.
What English translations call the Book of Numbers is actually about a number {no pun intended(y):whistle:} of different and important things, not least the event that no less than 3 major New Testament writers {Paul, Jude and whoever wrote Hebrews} use to warn followers of Christ not to mess about with God through lack of trust and to show what happened to those that did.
Incidentally, it's not accurately called the Book of Numbers. That's a typically English/European rendition of matters and causes people to focus on....the numbers of fighting dudes that were counted in the census. The actual Hebrew name is "B'Midbar" which means "In the Wilderness" {or desert}. It's the continuing story of what took place in the desert.
Without prophets there wouldn't be a Bible
Debateable. The "Hebrew Bible" {the Tanakh} is split into 3 parts. The Law, the Prophets and the Writings.
Prophecy is the proof of God's word. The entire Bible is all about Emanuel, Christ, the Messiah. If you don't get the correlation, or understand the importance of prophetic inheritance... read it again
We are talking at cross-purposes here. All along, I have been trying to understand your overall point and how it relates to what I was originally replying to.
"Particularly as a Christian..." your emphasis seems to be upon the least important function of men and women as delineated in scripture
Actually, that emphasis is directly relevant to what Brass and Serendipity were talking about and specifically to what Serendipity said. The Bible for me contains many, many matters that give me pause for thought, which I have spent decades considering and working out how much of what is written squares with real life.
Marriage and sexual responsibility are much more important than "bonding"
Hey, we quibble over terms. Sexual responsibility is a major bulwark of marriage but marriage isn't just a word. It's a reality and it's a reality that goes beyond simply mentioning it as a word. Bonding is a crucial part of marriage and it is a continuous state that doesn't just happen on Tuesday the 5th, is achieved as a one-time thing and sticks around forever and a day. It needs nurturing and building upon and goes through ups and downs and sex is an integral part of that. It's not the only part of that nor is it the only integral part, but it is a God-given mechanism for marital bonding. And I'll say it again, even if a woman had 67 children and survived it {!!}, she's going to have sex a lot more times for pleasure and intimacy with her spouse than that.
If she survives 67 births ! :ROFLMAO:
 
God promises that children will suffer the sins of their fathers, fathers, fathers...
Yes. In the desert. And then some years later, through the prophet Ezekiel, he reverses that and states that no one is going to pay for someone else's sins. And God, through Ezekiel, specifically references fathers and sons. Interestingly.
You toss "Christianity" around like a badge of honor...
I happen to be a follower of Christ. It's naturally going to impact much of what I say.
I don't see it
You should have gone to Specsavers ! :geek:
 
The Bible for me contains many, many matters that give me pause for thought, which I have spent decades considering and working out how much of what is written squares with real life.
You should have just started and ended right there... I'm not one to argue for argument's sake, I've already found the truth.
This has actually been fascinating for me...
I think I said earlier..."The label placed upon any government depends entirely upon the one leading it," or something to that effect. Just goes to show that all ideology "trickles down" from those in authority. Truth obviously doesn't originate there, but the precedence to seek truth does.

So, just a little interjection;
Any nation that does not seek God's wisdom or serve God's will... obviously only serves its own will.
Man's will to seek the truth of God's wisdom is born of the God given freedom inherent in every individual.
Man cannot live by the letter of the law; If he breaks one then he breaks them all.
A man only stands justified before God by God's own forgiveness.
The Spirit of truth is a gift of God.

This wisdom is only found in the Bible.

Please, carry on ;)
 
I mentioned crime - not which race is perpetrating crime against which race.

Black on black crime is still crime. White on white crime is still crime. Can't say I've heard of an epidemic of emo kids from affluent families committing carjackings.
Actually, the disparity between black and white car theft would indicate otherwise, especially in contrast to murder or robbery.
But that's all quite beside the point. Punishment for a crime happens after the crime has been perpetrated, aka after the criminal made a conscious decision to perpetrate a crime. I don't wish death on anyone who might 14 years from now kill my gal or steal my car -- they have a road ahead, and choices to make -- whether they end up doing that or not is beyond my control.
There's a movie, Inception I believe it's called (?) which deals with the shortcomings of pre-punishing crimes that may never happen. Might do you good to watch it :eatpopcorn:
 
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Mind you, when people sleep around, they rarely are about long enough to create emotional bonds that are going to last.
The hormone exchange creates a permanent bond first time around. Any psychologist will tell you that.
I understand that. I was pointing out the absurdity of your statement that began with "Sex without kids is like getting drunk but not having a hangover. It just isn't the natural course of things."
Not sure how that's so absurd... A relatively high percentage of hookup situations result in conception because women are more motivated to hook up at the peak of [...] The Cycle.
I'm against hookup culture but I don't think you can legislate against those free choices that consenting adults, however young, make.
Agreed. This would easily branch into a gay rights discussion but for the purpose of this debate I'll keep it to a statement that I totally agree.
Well, this really needs to be put into context. Even to this day, many people within the various Jewish communities believe that they are disobeying God if they don't want {and don't have children} or if a woman wants a career but not kids. All over the world, communities that have been touched by Christian philosophy or the Bible use that quote of "Multiply, fill the earth" as though God were saying it to them, right now. Logically, if that was a "command" and it still held as a command, when could God ever purpose to wrap all of this up and start over ? No, that is a statement that was given to the first two inhabitants of the earth. Within it, it carries a resonance for humanity but only up to a certain point. The earth is pretty filled. Which is not to say that people should no longer have children {that would be silly and none of my business !}, rather, that every statement we come across in the Bible needs to be put into its correct context.
Well, the statement about the earth being "pretty filled" is far from correct...
Blimey, I don't. I've worked with girls that were pregnant at 12. I've known a young lady who had 4 kids by the time she was 20. I have a sort of friend who had child after child, up to 7. She never really took much care of them once they were crawling but kept on having them because "she liked babies." I know many guys who had kids and weren't in the slightest bit interested in contributing to their raising and nurturing. I know enough children who haven't known who their Dads are. Or seen them in more years than they've been alive.
Well, did I forget to specify, in positions to be able to support said kids. (was that necessary, idk...??) Which is why I don't have any, otherwise... you'd know where to find me :spank: :spank: :spank:
I don't like abortion because I hold life, however it's mandated, as sacred and none of us can tell the future. Yeah, there's a likely possibility that many children born into some situations that we all hold as negative will simply reproduce the negativity that has given rise to their birth in the first place. But not one of us can predict correctly the course of the entirety of an individual's life. In exactly the same way, we don't know what havoc someone from a stable, respectable background will wreak in the future and how many will be affected by their actions and attitude in a negative way. Most of the terrible leaders from whichever part of the world you care to name, that were responsible for untold millions of deaths and the suffering of even more than that, over the last millennia, came from marriages, you know. Many of the more corrupt politicians and law-enforcement practitioners of the last century in the Western world {I won't even begin to get to Africa and Asia} came from marriages, you know.
Marriages are never perfect. They are the ultimate result of human nature, and as we know, that isn't perfect. But it's still beautiful.
I think we need to be careful not to impose incorrect interpretations like the one Serendipity and I were talking about on all and sundry. Having children is an awesome responsibility. It's also a choice.
It's a choice, sure -- but which should be made before hooking up.
 
I have to admit, back in highschool I wasn't a very good student, too single mindedly focused on music. Well, females, and music, not necessarily in that order. Later, going back to school, college, mathematics became my favorite subject. There was no opinion, personal interpretation, no fellow student wasting everyone's time bleating on and on in an effort to prove some greater insight or intelligence. There was an answer, a correct answer that could be tested, proven correct. A grasp of the formula, the equation, any idiot could do it, thank you very much.

This is not math.
 
The hormone exchange creates a permanent bond first time around. Any psychologist will tell you that
Well, I wouldn't be going to that psychologist for advice on growing my carnivorous plants ! 🧐
Not sure how that's so absurd
It came across as you making a statement about children being the real/main reason for sex.
A relatively high percentage of hookup situations result in conception
How that connects to the statement that sex without kids, you'll have to explain that one.
Well, the statement about the earth being "pretty filled" is far from correct...
Just because Canada has vast tracts of uninhabited land......:LOL:
Seriously though, telling two people to fill the Earth when there is only two of them cannot seriously be equated to everyone else on the planet being expected to do the same thousands and thousands of years later when almost every liveable space is inhabited.
Well, did I forget to specify, in positions to be able to support said kids. (was that necessary, idk...??)
Yeah. That's the problem with pithy soundbites ~ so often the hearer is expected to be the one to make all kinds of assumptions and conclusions that are not included in the pithy soundbite. Far better one take the long and winding road and state your terms so you don't get misunderstood. If you say
In fact when I know for a fact that someone is not Christian, I still have huge respect for them for every kid they have
why should I conclude that that is not exactly what you mean ?
 
I didn't know that. I was only kidding with the Specsavers ad.
Is the eye problem cataracts or something more serious ?

You haven't had cataract surgery yet? Yes, no?

We've been through this. I had my left eye done long ago, early for my age, '08-'10, can't remember exact year. Quick, painless, it worked. However, I was dissatisfied with the star effect looking directly at light...automobile lights at night, no longer could see a nice round moon in that eye, etc. My right eye wasnt too bad, I decided to wait on that one. So, I waited. It's kind of like a lot of things, not cleaning your bedroom, your garage, gradually things get worse, more messy. Yeah, you're stepping over things, incrementally things get more messy, but in a way you don't notice just how messy, until you do. I was legally blind in my right eye. Literally, if for some reason my left eye got blocked while driving, or perhaps I needed to rub that eye on account of an itch, I could not see to drive from my right eye. It could be disorienting in general day-to-day. It was bad, something had to be done.

Having waited so long, it can cause atrophy, hardening of tissue. Doc said it was a "3rd world case". "This is not going to be easy", he said. I was worried. Could I lose my eye? My eyeball, glass eye outcome. He would/did not commit to that not being a possibility, stating regardless of my waiting so long, though slim, surgery comes with risks. My case, tissue hardening, healing could be problematic. I considered a no go, better my own eyeball where I couldn't see than a glass eye where, well....I couldn't see. The wife as my advisor, always looking out for my best, I decided to move forward and have the surgery.

The morning of the surgery, bright and early....not to scare anybody...pre-surgery getting ready to be rolled in, I asked the doc when do I get the meds to sort of put me under? Not totally, but....1st time around I was pretty much out, only remember seeing sort of kaleidescope colors from time to time, slight pressure, but more like a dream than anything else. This surgery?...I would be fully awake, just a bit of something to relax me. He explained, it is better this way, cognizant, I could move my eye as directed during surgery. Whoa, I considered a no-go, right there. I knew I couldn't do that.

Piece of cake. I guess the little something to relax me worked, fitted with black shades rolling out of surgery I began to sing Ray Charles, "I got a woman, way up town, she's good to me". Disappointment, came. Looking at the moon, I was seeing double, two moons, and some weird streak of light in my peripheral. My fault, I thought, I waited too damn long. Approximately a week, week and a half after surgery, I went for a sit on the porch. Went back inside the house, said wait a damn minute. Went back out, looked at the moon. No double vision, no streaks, no star effect from that eye. I'd already noticed the vivid colors post op, almost overwhelming, yet beautiful, but this was a turning point. I could see, in fact better with this eye than that done long ago. Absolutely glad I didn't pussy out and moved forward with having it done. Piece of cake. Could have gone either way, me having waited so long.

If you haven't had it done, you should consider it. Waiting or putting it off increases risks.
 
My Mom just had cataract surgery in one eye and mentioned the vivid colors :)

I was born extremely far-sighted with bad astigmatism. I've always seen double with my left eye and warped with my right. 7yrs ago however I had a bad reaction to arthritis medication and also developed temporary retinopathy. The swelling/bleeding subsided but did permanent damage...
I'm only 58, but I guess I have cataracts to look forward to lol ;)

No worries @grimtraveller , my eyes have always been laughably problematic... Walking through screen doors, mistaken identity, can't find my glasses without my glasses, running stopsigns. FELOPZD! :D
 
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Well, I wouldn't be going to that psychologist for advice on growing my carnivorous plants ! 🧐
Whatever is that supposed to mean? I should clarify btw -- what I said is mostly about women. The first-time hormonal bonding is not as strong for men.
It came across as you making a statement about children being the real/main reason for sex.
Oh, but getting drunk feels very very good for sure. Do it enough, and you can't stop. But you do get hung over!
lol
How that connects to the statement that sex without kids, you'll have to explain that one.
Huh, not quite sure where I was going with that.
Just because Canada has vast tracts of uninhabited land......:LOL:
Hey -- right on point! Here's something that I was thinking of when I wrote what I did. From a good friend:
At this time, Ontario loses phenomenal amounts of farmland every season. Over 110,000 acres per year, over 300 acres every day. In my lifetime, Southern Ontario has lost about 18% of its cropland: over 2.8 million acres. The recent Greenbelt controversy highlights this, but beyond development pressure, the use of eminent domain to expropriate farmland in prime ag regions for industrial purposes contributes as well. St. Thomas - a high value specialty crop region - lost 1500 acres to develop a new Volkswagen facility. Currently, Waterloo Regional Municipality is forcing the purchase of 700 acres of some of the best ground in Ontario for industrial use as well.

It's a shame that more of this sort of development doesn't take place in our own region. Thousands and thousands of acres around [our region] carry nothing but the carcasses of failed farms. Given that we need a place to house people or make things, the paper thin soil over bedrock in our region would be a much kinder choice than the deep soils and relatively fecund climate of Western Ontario. If you're going to build something, put it on rabbit scrub in Odessa, and not the best land in our country!
For what it's worth.

Yeah. That's the problem with pithy soundbites ~ so often the hearer is expected to be the one to make all kinds of assumptions and conclusions that are not included in the pithy soundbite. Far better one take the long and winding road and state your terms so you don't get misunderstood. If you say
why should I conclude that that is not exactly what you mean ?
OK I would rather people not read more into what I write than what I do. My bad!
 
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I realize that's the narrative you're going to cling to with your dying breath no matter what.
It would be better if you realized that what I said was provable to be true, and you developed compassion instead of vehement denial.
 
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