masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Exactly, we're in a service business not a dictatorship. If I order a burger without mayo it better not have mayo.
"Mastering" limiters are forcing me to change the way I mix.
- Thread starter NashBackslash
- Start date
Exactly, we're in a service business not a dictatorship. If I order a burger without mayo it better not have mayo.
Farview
Well-known member
I really don't believe the sound has been wrecked. If it were mastered the way you did it (as an example, I know you didn't spend any time on it), that would have sucked. But we split the difference and got it loud enough without completely killing it.
Ironklad Audio
New member
are they the guys from manowar?
...or is it man-o-war?
Farview
Well-known member
Yup! It's Manowar...no hyphens.
Joey, the bass player is the owner of Magic Circle Music, the record company that signed my client (Former Manowar guitarist) David Shankle. Those excerpts are from an the newest David Shankle Group (DSG) album that will be in stores in October.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Heh heh, that's probably true.
Besides, if I could come up with an actual new joke, I'd be a comedy writer, not stuck in this racket. 
Very true. HOWEVER, you try putting ketchup on my hot dog and you're out the door whether you're paying prime rate or notmasteringhouse said:
. (It's a Chicago thing. 
)G.
Farview
Well-known member
That's one of the reasons I don't go to Jean and Judes anymore. I don't like to be told how I want my stuff that I am paying for. I don't even put katsup on my hotdog anyway, I just don't want to dictated to by some snob that thinks his way is the only way.Very true. HOWEVER, you try putting ketchup on my hot dog and you're out the door whether you're paying prime rate or not
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Usually a sign of insecurity if they do. Snobbery that is, not the ketchup/catsup thing. G does Cheese-Whiz work in Chi-town?
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Yeah, cheese dogs are sold in just about every dog n' beef joint, along with chili dogs. But the traditional Chicago dog is made with a Vienna Beef hot dog on a poppyseed bun, and topped with mustard, onion, relish, cucumbers and celery salt (sport peppers optional).Usually a sign of insecurity if they do. Snobbery that is, not the ketchup/catsup thing. G does Cheese-Whiz work in Chi-town?
Probably the most famous place for Chicago dogs is Superdawg or Jr's (Juniors.) But the absolute best cheese dog was Irving's Hot Dogs. I'm not sure if they're still around or not, but there used to be one a block away from where I worked downtown years ago. For their cheese dogs, cheese fries, and even cheeseburgers they used Merkt's cheddar cheese spread. Expensive stuff, but man...the BEST cheese fries and burgers I've had. Don't know if your grocery stores in Philly sell Merkt's in the plastic tubs or not - I know that Cheeze Whiz is the gospel on philly cheesesteaks out there.
G.
(Rami's going to get on my case for talking food again
)
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Hmm, pretty much how I like 'em but never tried cucumbers. Mustard on soft Pretzels is also a Philly tradition.
But I said no celery salt, NO salt for the margarita, but it had salt on it, big grains of salt, ...
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
After a couple of pages, that topic got "limiting"talk about a side tracked thread!!! a minuite ago it was about limiters... good times
.Before my fellow Windy Cityans jump all over me for it, I probably should mention that there are a couple of common ingredients I forgot to mention: tomatoes and a pickle spear (on the dog, not with it.) Yes, there IS room for all that stuff on a hot dog if you do it in the right order and sliced to the right size.
But the real ingrediants that set it apart are 1)that it HAS to be a Vienna Beef hot dog (Dave Berg hot dogs will do in a 2nd place pinch, but the REAL THING is made by Vienna Beef), the poppy seed hot dog bun, and the celery salt. And NO KETCHUP
.
That place is also pretty famous. They sell all kinds of sausages there besides the traditional hot dog. I just checked their website, they must be on vacation right now or something, because they say they are closed until the 28th. But I think the reason they give on the website is much funnierHi_Flyer said:
.
"Man, that's whack. What to they call a Big Mac there?"masteringhouse said:
....oops, sorry...I thought I was re-living a scene from Pulp Fiction there for a minute...
(All those years of celery salt have taken their toll...)G.
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SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Random? Or maybe a secret message revealing an inportant part of God's plan? Hmmmmm?
G.
NashBackslash
New member
I prefer burgers because hotdogs just don't make me full. 
ANYWAY!...
Finally, we're getting somewhere!
So tell me Farview, how exactly does one have to mix to get their songs ready to be limited so that the loudness is equal to, say, a Trivium CD?
I'm not being a Trivium fanboy, there are plenty of CDs with the loudness that I have in mind, but what set Jason Suecof's stuff apart from the other loud CDs is that the snares on the Trivium stuff are VERY punchy. Even on dense sections with lots of stuff going on, the snare just cuts through.
If mixing the drum (or snare) out front is not the way to do it, then what is?
I remember vaguely reading somewhere that to get a song to be as loud as some of the commercial metal CDs out there, the whole process has to be done with that in mind right from the beginning; from the tracking stages, the mixing has to be done differently etc. Is this true? HOW DIFFERENT is the mixing for this style compared to the usual style?
Also, you said "make mixes that you don't have to crush as much". How is this possible? If I set the limiter's threshold to -6dB, it won't be loud enough (the punch will still be there though, which is a good thing and all but as I said; other people have done WAY louder but still have the snare punchy). Hence why I've said that I have to lower my threshold all the way down to -12dB to get it anywhere close to the commercial CDs.
I appreciate you taking the time to help me here Farview.
LogicDeluxe - I fully understand why over compressed/limited mixes are bad (otherwise I wouldn't have created this thread; the reason I came here is because I noticed that my snares are losing their punch when I limit my mixes) but... the thing is, you can't really change the facts. Everyone wants their CD loud. Everyone wants to hear their songs on the radio just as loud as other peoples' songs. You can disagree all you want but the compressed shit sells. Bands are paying studios to make loud CDs. I don't know about you but I've spent a lot of money setting up my studio and I really, really need the business. I don't think it's a good idea to say to the band "no, how about we make your mix soft and tell all the people who buy your CDs to turn up their CD players/amps/whatever". Besides, I'm hearing a lot of CDs (especially hard rock and metal) that manage to mangle the loudness but retain the punchy kick and snares. So I know it's possible.
ANYWAY!...
Finally, we're getting somewhere!
So tell me Farview, how exactly does one have to mix to get their songs ready to be limited so that the loudness is equal to, say, a Trivium CD?
I'm not being a Trivium fanboy, there are plenty of CDs with the loudness that I have in mind, but what set Jason Suecof's stuff apart from the other loud CDs is that the snares on the Trivium stuff are VERY punchy. Even on dense sections with lots of stuff going on, the snare just cuts through.
If mixing the drum (or snare) out front is not the way to do it, then what is?
I remember vaguely reading somewhere that to get a song to be as loud as some of the commercial metal CDs out there, the whole process has to be done with that in mind right from the beginning; from the tracking stages, the mixing has to be done differently etc. Is this true? HOW DIFFERENT is the mixing for this style compared to the usual style?
Also, you said "make mixes that you don't have to crush as much". How is this possible? If I set the limiter's threshold to -6dB, it won't be loud enough (the punch will still be there though, which is a good thing and all but as I said; other people have done WAY louder but still have the snare punchy). Hence why I've said that I have to lower my threshold all the way down to -12dB to get it anywhere close to the commercial CDs.
I appreciate you taking the time to help me here Farview.
LogicDeluxe - I fully understand why over compressed/limited mixes are bad (otherwise I wouldn't have created this thread; the reason I came here is because I noticed that my snares are losing their punch when I limit my mixes) but... the thing is, you can't really change the facts. Everyone wants their CD loud. Everyone wants to hear their songs on the radio just as loud as other peoples' songs. You can disagree all you want but the compressed shit sells. Bands are paying studios to make loud CDs. I don't know about you but I've spent a lot of money setting up my studio and I really, really need the business. I don't think it's a good idea to say to the band "no, how about we make your mix soft and tell all the people who buy your CDs to turn up their CD players/amps/whatever". Besides, I'm hearing a lot of CDs (especially hard rock and metal) that manage to mangle the loudness but retain the punchy kick and snares. So I know it's possible.
Farview
Well-known member
You would have to make your recording sound like a Trivium CD. Part of that sound is an esthetic choice, but a lot of the reason it sounds like that (and the reason a lot of stuff sounds "the same") is because that's what you have to do to get it that loud.
You have to go through the tracks and take out the frequencies that are not needed from each instrument.
You need to EQ it and everything around it so that it cuts through without having to be 6db louder than everything else. I also tend to run the drums to a buss and strap and 1176 across it. That helps control the dynamics of the drums.
Yes, you have to pick sounds that fit together like a puzzle. That way everything has a place that doesn't fight with other instruments.
You also need to emphasize the harmonic of an instrument and not the fundamentla note. The fundamentel and first harmonic have the most dynamic power, if you de-emphasize those frequencies you wind up with something that sounds dynamic, but isn't.
This is what is being done on the trivium album. Listen to the bass, the emphasis is somewhere around 800hz to 1khz. Clarity without the mud of the 100hz area.
Same thing with the guitar, the main thing you hear is the crunch.
That kick is comressed and limited to death and is mostly high end, with no mids and just enough low end to make it sound like a kick. It has no dynamics.
The snare is all high end (with a little thump) and is compressed and gated to death. (it's probably a sample)
There is a big difference between setting your threshold at -12 and having 12db of reduction.
Where you set you threshold is completely dependant on the level of the mix. My raw mixes, I can normally set the threshold at -6db without having any reduction taking place. The important thing is to know how much reduction is taking place.
What you have to do is control the dynamics on the individual tracks, this will give you a louder raw mix, which won't need to be crushed as much to get just that little bit louder.
Like in my examples, my mix was only about 3db quieter than the master needed to be. So, there was not a huge amount of crushing needed.
NashBackslash
New member
Everytime I do this, the whole mix ends up sounding thin and lifeless; the lowend isn't there, the guitars sound muffled and the vocals sound like a demo recording (no matter how tightly it was performed). Please help.
Ummm... what are harmonics and fundamentals? How do I get to know where to find them on the EQ plot?
When I try to add high end to snares, it sounds nasally and kinda paper-y.
Would slapping a limiter on every track be recommended?
If you wanna sound like the Red Hot Chilli Peppers
Just do what sounds good, personally I think it would sound horrible. But then again I like dynamics
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Great tips Jay.
These tips apply not only to Metal or being able to create a loud mix, but good mixing techniques in general. To create a mix that can withstand severe limiting and dynamic reduction, it simply has to be a great mix to start with.
Farview
Well-known member
These two sentences are related. You need to know how music works, what frequencies are related to what instrument in what key, etc...Everytime I do this, the whole mix ends up sounding thin and lifeless; the lowend isn't there, the guitars sound muffled and the vocals sound like a demo recording (no matter how tightly it was performed). Please help.
Ummm... what are harmonics and fundamentals? How do I get to know where to find them on the EQ plot?
The fundamental is the frequency of the note being played. A tuning fork at A-440 will have a fundamental frequency of 440hz. A guitar playing that same note will have a fundamental at 440hz, a first harmonic at 880hz, a second harmonic at 1760hz, and so on. With guitars, the first harmonic is normally louder than the fundamental. That's where the dynamic power is. Cut that down, and you are left with the guitar sound without all the dynamics that take up your headroom and mess with the limiter.
If your mixes sound thin after doing this, you are either taking out too much or you are cutting in the wrong place.
Either the snare sound sucks in the first place, you are boosting the wrong frequencies, or your EQ sucks.When I try to add high end to snares, it sounds nasally and kinda paper-y.
Nope, you will make everything too thick. A compressor can work if you don't go overboard, but a limiter will screw you.