I am using an emagic Audiowerk2 card with Logic 4.8.1 Platunum and/or Digital Performer 3 on an early model G4. When monitoring his/her vocals through Logic or DP there is a slight delay(maybe 8 or 10 milliseconds). it's noticeable and the vocalists are having a lot of trouble giving their best takes because of this distraction. TI agree that the vocalist must hear themselves EXACTLY as they sing/speak but I don't know what to try in order to beat this latency. Any ideas I should try out? Thanks a lot.
Latency is tripping up the vocalist!
- Thread starter swindle
- Start date
AlChuck
Well-known member
Monitor them through the signal chain before the computer, not after. There's no way to eliminate some latency.
8 to 10 milliseconds is pretty darn low, whoever they are must be pretty darn sensitive...
I mean 8-10 ms on the order of the difference in what you would hear coming out of the PA speaker if you're about 3 meters (about 10 feet) away from it as opposed to standing right in front of it... not an unusual distance for members of an ensemble to be apart from each other on a reasonably-sized stage.
8 to 10 milliseconds is pretty darn low, whoever they are must be pretty darn sensitive...
I mean 8-10 ms on the order of the difference in what you would hear coming out of the PA speaker if you're about 3 meters (about 10 feet) away from it as opposed to standing right in front of it... not an unusual distance for members of an ensemble to be apart from each other on a reasonably-sized stage.
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
I think Emeric has the best answer. If you monitor through your hardware, you won't need to worry about latency.
As an alternate, you could try reducing your latency settings; however, that's likely to create dropout problems for you (the lower latency requires more horsepower). I'm not familiar with either your sound card or software - so I'm not sure how the latency is controlled - but generally there are settings in the sound card mixer and/or the multitrack program that will allow you to adjust your latency settings.
But, best bet is to follow Emeric's advice.
As an alternate, you could try reducing your latency settings; however, that's likely to create dropout problems for you (the lower latency requires more horsepower). I'm not familiar with either your sound card or software - so I'm not sure how the latency is controlled - but generally there are settings in the sound card mixer and/or the multitrack program that will allow you to adjust your latency settings.
But, best bet is to follow Emeric's advice.
I am using a mackie 1202 for the moment and I can definitely try your advice and monitor live through the mixer feed before the cpu BUT my concern with that is: The vocalist will be singing according to what they hear coming from Logic (the computer based multi-track recording program). Now, those prerecorded Logic tracks that are coming back into the mixer to sing over, aren't those slightly delayed as well? Aren't they the same delay as the vocals were (8-10 ms)? And if so, when the vocalist sings/rhymes over those delayed tracks, won't the vocals be off time when it's all played back together? Sure it may be just slightly off but once I know something is off, even if you try to nudge it back on, my ears start fooling me and failing me into thinking things are off all over the place and it just ends up in a bunch of uncertainty. YES, you all are my support group for my uncertainties, how does that meake you feel? No but seriously, do you think those vocals will be off if recorded as described or should it be alright?
All I can say is try it, test it. Try a blank project with a wav file solid click and click along with it via microphone and a few drumsticks. Depending how good you are, it should be for all intents... close enough. Latency in everything, unavoidable. The latency your describing is obvious to you, so it indicates to me, that it is something easier solved by monitoring on the hardware side while tracking. I think the the delay your hearing must be more than 8mS but I may be wrong. Software, soundcards, drivers, etc can do some weird shit.
Concentrate on the 1 in 4/4, can you hit it close enough? Is it you or is it the machine?
Before going paranoid and losing your sanity, test it and see. I have, and I'm still somewhat sane.
Compare the wav files as well, zoom in there, are they close enough in time? Close enough for a human versus click track?
Close enough for Rock & Roll?
Check it out, it's very easy to get paranoid with computer recording, and rightly so.
Concentrate on the 1 in 4/4, can you hit it close enough? Is it you or is it the machine?
Before going paranoid and losing your sanity, test it and see. I have, and I'm still somewhat sane.
Compare the wav files as well, zoom in there, are they close enough in time? Close enough for a human versus click track?
Close enough for Rock & Roll?
Check it out, it's very easy to get paranoid with computer recording, and rightly so.
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
Just offset the vocal track by a few milliseconds during mixdown.
The problem is your vocalist, not your equipment!!
Seriously, I would say monitoring them through the signal chain after the computer, but make sure the cables are connected properly. Check them, and then check them again. Also, parse the latency ever so slightly. This will help!!
Seriously, I would say monitoring them through the signal chain after the computer, but make sure the cables are connected properly. Check them, and then check them again. Also, parse the latency ever so slightly. This will help!!
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
Hmmmm... learn something every day. I was not aware that loose cables contributed to latency. I guess the electrons must have a slower flow rate through improperly connected cables.
sonusman
Banned
Multi track software doesn't have a latency between the recorded track and tracks already recorded! Crap, if that was the problem, they could NEVER sell any of this stuff!!!
Cables hooked up properly? That is rich!!!
Monitor via the hardware. 0 latency. My soundcard has software options to route the input of the soundcard to the output directly. It is the "monitor" selection. Only problem here is that the volume is what it is at the input, and trying to "mix" the input volume with the output volume COULD adversely effect what is being recorded (in the case that the input volume is too loud, I wouldn't want to lower it if the level is good for recording right? Of course not...)
There are many ways you can use even a 1202 well in the tracking stage. I have one right now, and I do plenty of overdub recording to Sonar, and I haven't even went in and change ANY settings to improve performance or latency. You could:
Send to the soundcard via the Insert jack for one of the mic pre channels. In this case, you would adjust the volume of the soundcards output, which would be hooked up to one of the stereo channels up or down to "mix" it with the vocal channel.
Use an Aux send off of the vocal channel and the stereo channel (the soundcard output is hooked up to this) as a way of feeding an headphone amp.
Either way, you are monitoring from the console, NOT after the software, which WILL have a certain amount of latency (and even a 10ms delay CAN be annoying....the blend of the singers headtones and the voice they are hearing from the software would cause a nice little phase shift, which could cause the singer to adjust the timbre based on what they are hearing....)
Anyway, it is simple. Just monitor via hardware and be done with it.
Eddie
Cables hooked up properly? That is rich!!!
Monitor via the hardware. 0 latency. My soundcard has software options to route the input of the soundcard to the output directly. It is the "monitor" selection. Only problem here is that the volume is what it is at the input, and trying to "mix" the input volume with the output volume COULD adversely effect what is being recorded (in the case that the input volume is too loud, I wouldn't want to lower it if the level is good for recording right? Of course not...)
There are many ways you can use even a 1202 well in the tracking stage. I have one right now, and I do plenty of overdub recording to Sonar, and I haven't even went in and change ANY settings to improve performance or latency. You could:
Send to the soundcard via the Insert jack for one of the mic pre channels. In this case, you would adjust the volume of the soundcards output, which would be hooked up to one of the stereo channels up or down to "mix" it with the vocal channel.
Use an Aux send off of the vocal channel and the stereo channel (the soundcard output is hooked up to this) as a way of feeding an headphone amp.
Either way, you are monitoring from the console, NOT after the software, which WILL have a certain amount of latency (and even a 10ms delay CAN be annoying....the blend of the singers headtones and the voice they are hearing from the software would cause a nice little phase shift, which could cause the singer to adjust the timbre based on what they are hearing....)
Anyway, it is simple. Just monitor via hardware and be done with it.
Eddie
Slackmaster2K
Gone
Ed, you're right to a point, however some card/driver/software combinations are prone to lag.
You're right though, many soundcards will do zero-latency monitoring, which completely eliminates the need to think about latency in these terms. Of course that means that you're going to be monitoring pre-converters which is kind of a bummer.
In this particular case, it could very well be Digital Performer was setup to monitor post-conversion. One reason for this is that you can add effects to the incoming signal...in n-Track terms this is "live input processing". It can be turned off in n-Track; I have no experience with DP.
Slackmaster 2000
You're right though, many soundcards will do zero-latency monitoring, which completely eliminates the need to think about latency in these terms. Of course that means that you're going to be monitoring pre-converters which is kind of a bummer.
In this particular case, it could very well be Digital Performer was setup to monitor post-conversion. One reason for this is that you can add effects to the incoming signal...in n-Track terms this is "live input processing". It can be turned off in n-Track; I have no experience with DP.
Slackmaster 2000
Slackmaster2K
Gone
Dude, you need to check your blinker fluid
Slackmaster2K
Gone
Oh, you didn't tell us you were an expert knowledgist. Sorry man 