Just curious as to why still analog??

analogfreak said:
I hear and read the word "warm" a lot when describing the analogue sound, which I think is true, but perhaps a more accurate term might be "cohesive" when describing the advantages of analogue sound over digital. The instruments just tend to blend together better as a cohesive whole.

Cohesive – that’s exactly right. I’ve had a hard time trying to describe the collective sound that’s greater than the sum of it’s parts, which I think digital fails to preserve. I think cohesive might be the word. :)
 
Analog has all the subtle stuff that is missing between the 0nes and zer0s of digital binary code. My simple 2 cent opinion. :confused:
 
Beck said:
Cohesive – that’s exactly right. I’ve had a hard time trying to describe the collective sound that’s greater than the sum of it’s parts, which I think digital fails to preserve. I think cohesive might be the word. :)

Hey, guys, I'd say you are hitting right about in the 'heart of it' ... (imho) that's what makes analog to be more preferable 'method' for recording performed music. (NOTE: you see, I'm using word 'preferable' instead of 'better'. Also there are other than 'performed music' musical artforms and also productions where music is being used as supprtive entity (film, games, commercials etc), so I would not include those fields of music production into discussion)

I also want to add here one more thing, which is also hard to clearly explain from technical point and why it matters. But, I think it is important to keep in mind, that in addition to 'being sum of it's parts in digital domain everything (what ever is happening) was pre-set (pre-programmed) by a designer (programmer), regardless of how complex and sophisticated the programming is.
I will try to sort of explain with following analogy/example: 2 balls plus 3 balls = 5 balls, right ? - right. How do we know?
In digital domain you get this answer only and if you first set the machine to give you the ansewer by providing the machine with hard and strict set of rules and the machine will give you the answer only by FOLLOWING YOUR RULES.
In Analog 'domain' to get the answer you have to through the balls into the air and when they 'naturally' (forced by gravity) fall down on the grass - you'll see five balls.

Now, I guess, some/many of you, guys, say: "What the hell is he talking about?" heh heh , I know, I understand that my example is kind of way out of logic and may not make much sense. But I am trying to illustrate here the sense and feeling of independence (and freedom if you will), which I get as an artist/producer, when working with analog. Another words, when working with analog, I get that feeling of doing something more personal, more unique, less predictable and clearly much more natural, and I don't have that back-feeling, that everything I do, every step on the way is predetermined by a software programmer, to whom I've learned not to trust! :p .

well, I did my best to explain. heh heh ;), sorry if my rant makes no sense...

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
well, I did my best to explain. heh heh ;), sorry if my rant makes no sense...

/respects

Nope, I think I know what you're saying. I was thinking the same thing. With tape it's almost like "the field of unlimited possiblities" :p You pretty much know what you'll get but some is left to chance. With digital you working within a pre-set domain.

There's also something called 3rd harmonics that you get from tape that you don't get from digital. It's those harmonics created from the sum of the parts that creates that cohesive sound we're talking about and adds that something extra.
 
Beck said:
Cohesive – that’s exactly right. I’ve had a hard time trying to describe the collective sound that’s greater than the sum of it’s parts, which I think digital fails to preserve. I think cohesive might be the word. :)
I wouldn't use the word "fails to preserve". "Fails to impose" rather. Otherwise I agree.
 
tweak said:
Analog has all the subtle stuff that is missing between the 0nes and zer0s of digital binary code. My simple 2 cent opinion. :confused:
Yeah, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. But that takes quite a bit of maths to understand, and this is the wrong place.

The argument that digital somehow fails to accurately represent sound has been proven false many times. So the question is rather what analog does to the sound that makes it sound better.
 
Dr ZEE said:
But I am trying to illustrate here the sense and feeling of independence (and freedom if you will), which I get as an artist/producer, when working with analog. Another words, when working with analog, I get that feeling of doing something more personal, more unique, less predictable and clearly much more natural, and I don't have that back-feeling, that everything I do, every step on the way is predetermined by a software programmer, to whom I've learned not to trust! :p .

Well put and I think it hard as well to put into words what it is about analog that makes it a tool of choice but I feel we're getting real close to the reasons judging by some good responses so far. I feel that the "why still analog" question is not as easy to answer as it seems. It is a complex answer to a seemingly simple way to record music ..

~Daniel
 
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regebro said:
Yeah, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. But that takes quite a bit of maths to understand, and this is the wrong place.

The argument that digital somehow fails to accurately represent sound has been proven false many times. So the question is rather what analog does to the sound that makes it sound better.

Perhaps it is the "accuracy" that is the problem and not an improvement when we talk about digital. I really have never heard a digitally tracked piece that sounded "good" to my ears. I don't mean one which "failed to accurately represent sound" but which "failed to sound good". I can see how on paper digital can seem so much better but it is our ears that tell us the truth, don't they ? Digital fails to stir the soul and seems a foreign source to the senses. That's the best I can put it and the way I feel about it.

~Daniel
 
Seems to me like a matter of depth perception. Two objects, equal in size on the facade when staring directly at them, little perceived difference. Peek around the side and one is 4" thick, the other 3. That's what digital vs. analog reminds me of. With digital, the seemingly significant basics are there to meet the criteria of representing the audio, and maybe during the process so much emphasis is spent on trying to create the spatiality that the depth suffers.
Whatever the difference is or why, there is definitely a difference.
 
Seeker of Rock said:
. With digital, the seemingly significant basics are there to meet the criteria of representing the audio, and maybe during the process so much emphasis is spent on trying to create the spatiality that the depth suffers.
Whatever the difference is or why, there is definitely a difference.

This was the problem that I was having with my digital workstation recordings were coming out "flat" lacking dynamics. It seemed the more I added to adjust for it would only make it worse. I found recording a simple acoustic guitar and vocal worked better with what I was using than trying to record an ensemble of instruments.

It's been said that the human ear is capable of percieving spatial differences in it's surroundings at a rate of something like 15 microseconds. They say sample rates of 96 still fall short of this and at around 192 is where it gets closer to ear's quickness.

Actually here's a good link that I found back when I was desperately searching for answers before I got my 38. Digital Sucks Though I don't completely subscribe to the title there is some good information here.
 
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cjacek said:
Perhaps it is the "accuracy" that is the problem and not an improvement when we talk about digital. I really have never heard a digitally tracked piece that sounded "good" to my ears. I don't mean one which "failed to accurately represent sound" but which "failed to sound good". I can see how on paper digital can seem so much better but it is our ears that tell us the truth, don't they ? Digital fails to stir the soul and seems a foreign source to the senses. That's the best I can put it and the way I feel about it.

~Daniel

In my admitedly limited experience in both analog and digital recording, this is the impression that I get as well. Digital recording seems too accurate.
 
SteveMac said:
Digital Sucks Though I don't completely subscribe to the title there is some good information here.
Possibly, but the beginning of the article is so full of bad and incorrect information, so I couldn't actually be bothered to read the rest.

"At the upper limit of the sampler's range, sampling an analog wave roughly 2 times per cycle will result in a sloppy, hit-and-miss digital result which rarely catches the wave at the top and bottom of its cycle. This would turn a perfect sine wave into a jagged, irregular mess. That's what has happened when you hear a digitized cymbal crash that sounds splashy or splattered."

This is false, and based on lack of knowledge and misunderstandings. Lots of misunderstandings come from the fact that you look at the data after it has been converted to digital. But that's not what you listen to. To listen to it you have to convert it back to analog. Compare THOSE signals. And that will result in a perfect sinewave, not a "jagged, irregular mess".
 
analogfreak said:
I hear and read the word "warm" a lot when describing the analogue sound, which I think is true, but perhaps a more accurate term might be "cohesive" when describing the advantages of analogue sound over digital. The instruments just tend to blend together better as a cohesive whole.


this is very true. I also have noticed that things tracked "live" to digital sound much more cohesive than when you layer tracks. at least for me, having fewer tracks, using tube gear, a variety of pres, and avoiding plugins contribute to a much more "cohesive" sound.
 
regebro said:
But that's not what you listen to.

That is correct. You don't listen to data. Dohhh ;) ,
The problem is, that 'what you actually do listen to' is even 'worse', or let's say "better" (being fixed and patched :eek: ), but at what price? You see.... this is where all the "mysteries" are comming from. From all the trickery of human brain's design (from programming, from hundreds of sets of commands and rules on how to 'manipulate the abstract data (again I highlite it: the 'rules for the machine' were written by a "collective designer/programmer", the "collective designer" has decided which switch to turn on, which switch to turn off) and from sophisticated incorporation of millions of ON/OFF-switches with electrical signal - that's what a/d and d/a really are). Yes, you get the "curve" at d/a's output door.... the question is What Curve!!!!????? When in practical application (recording performing musician, band, instrument etc) a producer hears that the "curve" comming out of "it" sucks, then that's what it is - it sucks. Sorry, man.... academia isn't fixing it, and while knowledge and understanding is nice, but it does not really help to deal with the frustration, that a practicing musician/producer is experiencing while using digital platform for recording.
Misunderstanding this, misunderstanding that. Cut it out already! We ain't students here, man... Been there, studied it, were foolled by it, got sick of it. Now give me my real juicy burger deluxe, as it used to be in "old days". :D Let, me put it this way (using totally ugly analogy): Digital Recording is: Fresh beef in - BigMac out. (But not the one you see on menue display!) Yeah, baby - it is still meat. Right? ... Right. - From Digital Technology Academia point - it IS Right. They can prove it to anyone with their "lab results report". For me? - nop, I ain't eating this no mo' , well, only when I really have to :p

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
The problem is, that 'what you actually do listen to' is even 'worse', or let's say "better" (being fixed and patched :eek: )
sigh. No, it's not "fixed" or "patched". It aint broken in the first place. It's not more broken than a zipe file of a picture is broken. It will still just look like noise if you look at it in a picture viewer without unpacking it.

You see.... this is where all the "mysteries" are comming from. From all the trickery of human brain's design (from programming, from hundreds of sets of commands and rules on how to 'manipulate the abstract data (again I highlite it: the 'rules for the machine' were written by a "collective designer/programmer", the "collective designer" has decided which switch to turn on, which switch to turn off) and from sophisticated incorporation of millions of ON/OFF-switches with electrical signal - that's what a/d and d/a really are).
I'm sorry, this part of you post makes no sense to me, I have no idea what you are trying to say. There is however, no "trickery of human brain design" involved. Maybe you are confusing this with lossy compression? What this has to do with collective progamming is completely beyond me.

Yes, you get the "curve" at d/a's output door.... the question is What Curve!!!!?????
The same as you put in.

<more incomprehensible text snipped>

Misunderstanding this, misunderstanding that. Cut it out already! We ain't students here, man...
Well, maybe we should be? Then we might learn something.

<more incomprehensible text snipped>
 
regebro said:
I'm sorry, this part of you post makes no sense to me, I have no idea what you are trying to say. There is however, no "trickery of human brain design" involved. Maybe you are confusing this with lossy compression? What this has to do with collective progamming is completely beyond me.

Dr. Zee has laid out a very stimulating and insightful discourse – right to the heart of it.

Makes good sense to me. :)
 
regebro said:
Well, maybe we should be? Then we might learn something.

And then what? Do you mean, that an ignorant dude who hears 'sh*t' coming out of his monitors connected to his DAW after 'learning something' will start loving it? ahaaaa. - that is only possible in virtual reality...

heh heh, just don't you dare say, that 'his ignorance' is the reason why the "sh*t' comes out of his smonitors.... and thus he should learn how to 'properly use digital technology'. Cos if you do - it's just gonna really piss me off, I may become very unstable .... :D :D :D
We all heard soooooooo many times: "The technology is just fine, it's just you, guys, are not 'ready for it'". grrrrrrrrrrr :mad: :mad: :mad:

arghhhhhhhhhh

/later
 
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