axeman_ukl
New member
has anybody tried or owned one of these do they make the monitors sound more neutral in your room?
jbl msc 1
- Thread starter axeman_ukl
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Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
If they make them "sound" more accurate, keep in mind that they're doing so by making them less accurate.
There is no substitute for properly treating the room - Absolutely none, no exceptions.
There is no substitute for properly treating the room - Absolutely none, no exceptions.
axeman_ukl
New member
the room is treated as much as i can but the room is really not ideal in shape 10x10 pitched ceiling to a big beam going to the back section height of about 3 metres. a chimney breast down one side (major base collecting point) .
i have 4 super chunk base traps in the corners (rs100) floor to ceiling at rear of the room and as tall as i could get them at the pitched side. as much insulation in the small resess at the side of the chimney.then the base trap
hard to explain heres a quick drawing.
this takes care of alot of the problems but i was hoping the jbl would sort out the rest
i have 4 super chunk base traps in the corners (rs100) floor to ceiling at rear of the room and as tall as i could get them at the pitched side. as much insulation in the small resess at the side of the chimney.then the base trap
hard to explain heres a quick drawing.
this takes care of alot of the problems but i was hoping the jbl would sort out the rest
Attachments
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Same thing applies though -- If you have a 30dB null @ 100Hz by your left ear, the thing isn't going to boost 100Hz by 30dB out of the left speaker to compensate (the speaker would liberate itself immediately I'm sure) and if you have a peak of 10dB at the other ear the only thing it can do is cut 100Hz almost completely.
That's not accuracy.
At risk of sounding like a harbinger of bad news, you're in an acoustical nightmare. Not just a "gee, this isn't such a hot room" but more or a "there's barely anything you can do to make that room acoustically viable" nightmare.
The only things you can really do are to A) trap the hell out of it and B) try to learn it. I was stuck in a room not far off from that size for a couple years some years back. Giant peaks at one point in space, huge nulls and voids less than a foot away - Always having to remember to move (only slightly, mind you) to certain positions to listen for certain things... It was horrible. Corners, bass traps on the front wall, bass traps on the rear wall, light absorption on the side walls - Sure, it helped - but it was still a tough room. But the last thing you'd want to do is make the speakers as inaccurate as the room... Those "speaker fixer" things are reasonably good at fooling a room into a more enjoyable listening experience - but certainly not a more accurate listening (and tracking, and mixing) experience.
That's not accuracy.
At risk of sounding like a harbinger of bad news, you're in an acoustical nightmare. Not just a "gee, this isn't such a hot room" but more or a "there's barely anything you can do to make that room acoustically viable" nightmare.
The only things you can really do are to A) trap the hell out of it and B) try to learn it. I was stuck in a room not far off from that size for a couple years some years back. Giant peaks at one point in space, huge nulls and voids less than a foot away - Always having to remember to move (only slightly, mind you) to certain positions to listen for certain things... It was horrible. Corners, bass traps on the front wall, bass traps on the rear wall, light absorption on the side walls - Sure, it helped - but it was still a tough room. But the last thing you'd want to do is make the speakers as inaccurate as the room... Those "speaker fixer" things are reasonably good at fooling a room into a more enjoyable listening experience - but certainly not a more accurate listening (and tracking, and mixing) experience.
themdla
New member
hey just wanted chime in and say i bought one of those JBL MSC 1's and returned it the next day...
the device was kinda junky and the software was a clunky nightmare. also the MSC doesn't recognize digi hardware so i couldn't even use my signal chain for correction i had to use my computer.
i never got it to work but maybe the one i had was defective. after trying to reset it to factory settings at one point (because it was making this crazy noise when i would turn it on) it never powered on again.
anyway if you have the time to read further you'll find that the general consensus is that eq'ing a room will only provide moderate correction in a small listenable area. that come at a cost of making the rest of the room worse however. the best thing you could do is find a set of cheap speakers and a good set of headphones you like and a/b them all against your monitors while mixing.
how much did your room correction help?
i'm thinking of doing the same thing and have a similar room.
also, what is rs100? edit: okay i found out what rs100 is but the real question is... what density did you use?
the device was kinda junky and the software was a clunky nightmare. also the MSC doesn't recognize digi hardware so i couldn't even use my signal chain for correction i had to use my computer.
i never got it to work but maybe the one i had was defective. after trying to reset it to factory settings at one point (because it was making this crazy noise when i would turn it on) it never powered on again.
anyway if you have the time to read further you'll find that the general consensus is that eq'ing a room will only provide moderate correction in a small listenable area. that come at a cost of making the rest of the room worse however. the best thing you could do is find a set of cheap speakers and a good set of headphones you like and a/b them all against your monitors while mixing.
how much did your room correction help?
i'm thinking of doing the same thing and have a similar room.
also, what is rs100? edit: okay i found out what rs100 is but the real question is... what density did you use?
axeman_ukl
New member
rs100 is 100kg/m3 as far as i'm aware the traping did help but not as much as i thought it would.
would i be right in saying when i run a tone test and use a spl meter in my mixing position i would be looking for a result of as little movement in the readings from tone 1 to tone 300 ?
how much movement in readings would be classed as acceptable ?
would i be right in saying when i run a tone test and use a spl meter in my mixing position i would be looking for a result of as little movement in the readings from tone 1 to tone 300 ?
how much movement in readings would be classed as acceptable ?
themdla
New member
Not sure if my math is correct but... 100 kilograms = 220.462262 pounds
Most standard rigid acoustic insulation is 3lbs density so I’m not sure but it seems yours maybe to dense to allow for sound transmission.
Well the method your describing is not what I’m familiar with but...
If the "test tones" you’re referring to (1 to 300) are sine waves @ different frequencies then you would want to use and spl meter to find what db level is of each individual tone and graph it.
which ever tones stick out as louder in db than others gives you a rough picture of where your having problems... but!
The best way to do this type of measurement is to use the following:
-RTA (Real Time Analyzer)
-Pink Noise @ -20db
-Measurement Microphone (this is a specific type of microphone used only for measurement purposes)
-Dual 31-Band EQ
-SPL Meter
First you want to calibrate your monitors to play your negative -20 db pink noise @ 85db.
http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/index_files/Calibrating_Your_Monitoring_Chain.php
After your done calibrating play the pink noise again through the monitors with your Measurement Mic in listening position and RTA connected.
(You will also want your 31 band EQ connected to the monitoring outputs before the monitors themselves)
This pink noise will be picked up by the Measurement Mic and the resulting signal will be displayed/analyzed on your RTA as your room's real time frequency response from that position. Where ever you find peaks or dips on the RTA apply EQ adjustments until the RTA measures close to flat response.
This will however only work for that position. Anywhere else in the room will have a further skewed response.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
You're looking at KG per cubic meter vs. pounds per cubic foot (a cubic meter being somewhere in the realm of 30 cubic feet).
That all said --
The amount of bass trapping to tame a 10'x10' room is going to be extreme - very extreme. Corners aren't going to cut it - It's a start - but just a start.
That all said --
The amount of bass trapping to tame a 10'x10' room is going to be extreme - very extreme. Corners aren't going to cut it - It's a start - but just a start.
themdla
New member
well what the f*** am i gonna do then lol 
aside from corners and tri corners I was thinking of putting broadband bass traps at first reflection points and overhead... also I was kinda thinkin of a gobo/standing broadband trap that I could setup horizontally a few feet behind mix position to kind of take the back of the room out of the equation.
Any suggestions? (If need be I can post pics of my situation)
aside from corners and tri corners I was thinking of putting broadband bass traps at first reflection points and overhead... also I was kinda thinkin of a gobo/standing broadband trap that I could setup horizontally a few feet behind mix position to kind of take the back of the room out of the equation.
Any suggestions? (If need be I can post pics of my situation)
axeman_ukl
New member
well this thread is almost my room
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=307113
just add a chimney breast a bit firther bown than the side window (remove the window) and slide the door down to leave a corner a bit bigger than a 600mm wide base trap.
should i have used 200 kg/cubic meter for the base traps i could add some more to the front of the superchunk triangles , the back wall behind the mixing position has a 1.8m high by 1.2 meter long by 4 inches thick trap.
and there are 2 cloud traps on the tallest part of the room.
where else could i trap or is that as much as i can do and just learn the room ?
i could add some pictures if needed
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=307113
just add a chimney breast a bit firther bown than the side window (remove the window) and slide the door down to leave a corner a bit bigger than a 600mm wide base trap.
should i have used 200 kg/cubic meter for the base traps i could add some more to the front of the superchunk triangles , the back wall behind the mixing position has a 1.8m high by 1.2 meter long by 4 inches thick trap.
and there are 2 cloud traps on the tallest part of the room.
where else could i trap or is that as much as i can do and just learn the room ?
i could add some pictures if needed
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Dropped from the ceiling -- A few 2'x4'x4" traps make a nice cloud.
Eh, you do what you can. Not every room is/can be a viable space. Just as not every car can race at Daytona.
axeman_ukl
New member
what is classed as good for the spl rise and fall of a room ?
i will run some more tests today at various volumes to give an average to the peaks and nulls
i will run some more tests today at various volumes to give an average to the peaks and nulls
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
+/-6dB (ish) would be a dream space. +/-10dB is fairly typical for a nice freaking room.
A 10x10 is probably looking at +/-35-40dB (more likely +10-15 and -35-40, or a potential 50dB swing).
A 10x10 is probably looking at +/-35-40dB (more likely +10-15 and -35-40, or a potential 50dB swing).
themdla
New member
makes sense... any thoughs on my gobo/standing bass trap a few feet behind mix position idea?
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
A quick little discussion on room layout and treatment ideas:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/gstep/index.php?id=80
This is not the be-all and end-all on room design, it covers just some basic ideas. Also, it's not absolutely necessary to follow every last detail to get a servicable room layout, but the closer one can realistically within their abilities follow them in the home, the better off one'll probably be.
G.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/gstep/index.php?id=80
This is not the be-all and end-all on room design, it covers just some basic ideas. Also, it's not absolutely necessary to follow every last detail to get a servicable room layout, but the closer one can realistically within their abilities follow them in the home, the better off one'll probably be.
G.
themdla
New member
Thx glen
I’ve read a bunch of Ethan Winer stuff over the last few years and I’ve also read your article. Acoustic treatment is the way to go certainly
I just want to get the most bang for the buck and I am trying decide which of the DIY treatments I’ve read about will provide the best absorption and frequency response numbers, comparatively.
Winers' "panel" traps seem cool and being a woodworker in a previous life it seems like a fun project. More than likely I will build 8-10 of the standard broadband 2'x4'x4" traps with oc 703-like material and a backing frame (1 1/2" depth). Also I had a couple questions for the corners....
Most of the "super chucks" are either 34" or 24" facing the room but I wanted to try to build...
2"(h) x12"(a) x12"(b) x16"(c) triangles w/ a 16" face
(Sorry measurements a, b, c are from Pythagorean Theorem)
Then I’d like stack these into 12" high "traps". Then mount maybe five or six of these in a corner evenly spaced floor to ceiling. Ala Auralex lenard bass traps
Will these provide enough absorbsion? Or is it a wank to make them that small?
Would it be better to build 4'x1'x4" traps that cover the whole corner and have an air gap behind them?
Is it better to have an air gap or material all the way to the corner? Ethan’s articles seem to imply air gap...
In a small room like mine should I even consider "live" type diffusers or should I deaden as much as possible?
I have furniture in my mix room (against the back wall is my bed, a bookshelf in one corner, and a dresser in the other) are these pieces hurting or helping me with their locations?
If they are hurting me what are better positions for them?
PS should I start a new thread? I don't wanna hi-jack anyone but inquiring minds want to know
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I'll leave many of the detail questions re bass traps to those with more tech knowledge on them than I have, but in general I'd say better to have a "poorer" bass trap than none at all.
The mattress in the bed probably helps OK, but if you have no headboard at all or a solid flat headboard directly behind you, you can be getting some unwanted wall reflections. A bunch of throw pillows laid up against the headboard may help in that regard.
Look for balance between reflective surfaces and non-reflective ones, tending to have the non-reflective or diffusing surfaces on the direct reflection points between your speakers and your head, and the rest of the surface area not being totally bright but not totally dead either.
G.
I'd personally shoot for the combination that'll give me a room that falls in the middle. That is, I don't want first reflections that'll give me phasing or slapback echo issues, but a completely dead room is not very nice either. If your room has lots of flat, reflective surfaces and sound pretty live all on it's own, thne some degree of absorption is probably in order, but not so much to make for a dead room. If your room sounds pretty "normal" - i.e. not too live, but not dead either, than maybe some more diffusion might be called for over absorption.
The bookshelf may help best as a diffuser/absorber in a direct reflection spot. It's effect in the corner may or may not help, depending upon it's depth and the amount of books actually in it.
The mattress in the bed probably helps OK, but if you have no headboard at all or a solid flat headboard directly behind you, you can be getting some unwanted wall reflections. A bunch of throw pillows laid up against the headboard may help in that regard.
Look for balance between reflective surfaces and non-reflective ones, tending to have the non-reflective or diffusing surfaces on the direct reflection points between your speakers and your head, and the rest of the surface area not being totally bright but not totally dead either.
G.
themdla
New member
yeah i was kinda thinking that. i wanted put all the 2x4 panel traps in the following positions:
one behind each speaker, one or two at first lateral reflection points, one above each ear ceiling mounted, and one or two gobo style 3 ft behind mix position. i basically was thinking about building a box of bass traps around my mix position lol then coupling that with traps in the corners...
what do ya think?
axeman_ukl
New member
just to confirm is
+/-6db is that a total of 12db for a nice room
+/-10db total of 20db for a fairly typical room
i ran a quick test this morning just a spl meter at the mixing position and at low monitoring levels the total amount of movement was 15db
it read 55db of sound at 50-110hz and rose to 70db at its highest
i will re test later in smaller incruments to get a better picture.