Is there any talk of a pro-tools in between LE and HD?

[Joseph Hanna]

but most of the time they just sound tiny and lifeless due to the great tranparency.

Ok fair enough. That said however the consensus here is the Digi Pre's suck. I've seen this in print time and time and time again. The black helicopter theory that Digi's up to screwing the consumer again.

I'd just really like to get a grip on specifically and sonically what "sucks" about the Digi Pre's. I've only used an 002 one time in my career and I thought they were absolutely capable of sounds very similar to some of my Grace Pre amps.

I honestly don't get it. Someone enlighten me.

 

[bennychico11]

that's the funny thing because you get into wondering is "transparent" a good thing or bad thing? Do you want a preamp to color the sound? Or do you want the pure sound of the instrument coming through? I mean, we spend all the time using mic placement and spend all this money on acoustics to help capture the real sound of an instrument and then say "but we want a preamp to color the sound"

I don't think the four pres on the 002/003 sound any worse than the many other stock pres that are out there on interfaces. Of course you'll get people saying "but the focusrite pres...or the grace pres...or the xxxx pres"...but for the most part these are all dedicated preamps you're comparing them to. The LE line was built for home users to have a cheap(er) alternative for using Pro Tools without having to buy an HD system.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

that's the funny thing because you get into wondering is "transparent" a good thing or bad thing?

Yes I totally agree with you..that said for those here that continue to hear black helicopters and perpetuate a tired old forum wives tale.

Transparent (as it applies to pre amps and acoustics) is the summation of the source (the person playing the instrument and his or her talent level), the instrument, the environment/room in which both the player and the instrument resides, the decisions of the engineer (eq or compression on the way in) based on the listening environment of his or her control room, the placement of the mic, the gain structure of the mic as it pertains to the placement of the mic, humidity and a bevy of other factors.

The more one has a mastery of all of the above variables the more one starts to hear (or not hear) the INCREDIBLY SMALL differences between today's quality pre amps.


The Digi pre amps are not the best. That said the Digi pre amps are far, FAR more capable than most have the ability to take advantage of.

Really....I'm curious. Someone please specifically recount a situation where the Digi pre's sucked.

 

[Erockrazor]

I write this as I wait for my 003 Rack, my first real stab at pro-tools, to come in the mail tomorrow.

While twiddling my thumbs, I thought I'd checkout the pro-tools forum on homerec.

I think I have an additional explanation for the preamps on the LE hardware. While we can say that they maybe lack character or color, (based on statements made in this thread, not from my own experience) they are transparent. This may be sought to be a bad thing when really, I think it is the best choice digidesign could of made. These pre's are transparent because that is something that is more easier to agree on. It's harder for EVERYONE to agree that the Presonus BlueTube really kicks in with the tube's coloration and makes it sound better. I'm certain many more think it sucks. And that's the thing with having an interface with colored pre's, there would be something to discriminate against (no real pun intended). If the pre's are transparent, there is less to be picky with.

Luckily, as stated, Digidesign also leaves you with the option of using your own pre's (though they didn't have much of a choice BUT they do make you use it on 4 channels of the 8 ((or 12 of the 16)). I DO believe that these pres will be better than my MOTU 8pre pre's. They weren't pleasant. I dont think I can speak for converters as easily since I don't have much face to face comparison. But I could compare the pre's on the MOTU to a DMP3 and I thought there was a difference.

Whats a better interface in that pricerange? I'm not sure but a lot of people praise the RME Fireface interfaces. Though not as heavily feature savvy, they boast they have better converters than most.

Well here I come pro-tools (LE!). I wish I could say I wasn't a conformist but it's already too late. Lets hope pro-tools won't make me regret it.

Eric

 

[wreckd504]

De ja vu.

When digital first came in and everyone said it sucked and made the sound come out dry and lifeless, when in reality what they were hearing is the lack of colouring the analog desks did to the signal. Digital gives you an accurate picture of what you give it.

I don't think digi's pre's suck, they give you an incredibly accurate recording. If the sounds comes out bad its your :

- room
- mics
- mic positioning
- performance

that need improving, my 2 cents FWIW

 

[MessianicDreams]

Digidesign also leaves you with the option of using your own pre's (though they didn't have much of a choice BUT they do make you use it on 4 channels of the 8 ((or 12 of the 16)).

Actually, you could use your own preamps on all the inputs, although admittedly 8 of them would have to go thru the line amps of the unit...

 

[Joseph Hanna]

I write this as I wait for my 003 Rack, my first real stab at pro-tools, to come in the mail tomorrow.

While twiddling my thumbs, I thought I'd checkout the pro-tools forum on homerec.

I think I have an additional explanation for the preamps on the LE hardware. While we can say that they maybe lack character or color, (based on statements made in this thread, not from my own experience) they are transparent. This may be sought to be a bad thing when really, I think it is the best choice digidesign could of made. These pre's are transparent because that is something that is more easier to agree on. It's harder for EVERYONE to agree that the Presonus BlueTube really kicks in with the tube's coloration and makes it sound better. I'm certain many more think it sucks. And that's the thing with having an interface with colored pre's, there would be something to discriminate against (no real pun intended). If the pre's are transparent, there is less to be picky with.

Luckily, as stated, Digidesign also leaves you with the option of using your own pre's (though they didn't have much of a choice BUT they do make you use it on 4 channels of the 8 ((or 12 of the 16)). I DO believe that these pres will be better than my MOTU 8pre pre's. They weren't pleasant. I dont think I can speak for converters as easily since I don't have much face to face comparison. But I could compare the pre's on the MOTU to a DMP3 and I thought there was a difference.

Whats a better interface in that pricerange? I'm not sure but a lot of people praise the RME Fireface interfaces. Though not as heavily feature savvy, they boast they have better converters than most.

Well here I come pro-tools (LE!). I wish I could say I wasn't a conformist but it's already too late. Lets hope pro-tools won't make me regret it.

Eric

Eric,

You should be excited about your new 003. It, like so many other DAW's out there, has Titanic capabilities. I really hate to see someone entering into a new DAW worried about this converter-vs-that converter and this pre-vs-that pre. The Motu pre's are great the Digi pre's are great. Work with them.

Rise above, learn technique, learn parameters, understand eq, understand compression, understand how things sonically fit and how they don't, pay attention to your room and work (no matter your budget) to make it as trouble free as you can.

If you need room treatment tutorials look up Ethan Winers stuff. Read up on Bob Katz mastering technique and even more reveling his white paper on metering.

If you're micing understand that it is a lifelong mission to learn great technique and what worked yesterday may not work today.

Learn the software. Pro Tools, like all of the others, is endlessly deep. I see so many hot shot interns come through here that haven't a clue as to how to really take advantage of Pro Tools software. Many who bitch and wine about Digi's secret mission to screw the public are ill equipped to make those comments based upon their total ineptitude of understanding the software AND obviously the hardware.

Record, make mistakes and record again. If something turns out less than stellar point the finger at the engineer NOT the Digi pre's. Don't rush out and buy something because of a failed session.

Really if you're in this (recording) to make great sounds, even if it's a hobby, you gotta realize that great engineering is a culmination of hard, hard work, knowledge, knowledge applied, failures, lessons learned and an understanding that it takes a lifetime to become a master.

It's NOT the pre's..

Rant over

 

[Erockrazor]

Eric,

You should be excited about your new 003. It, like so many other DAW's out there, has Titanic capabilities. I really hate to see someone entering into a new DAW worried about this converter-vs-that converter and this pre-vs-that pre. The Motu pre's are great the Digi pre's are great. Work with them.

Rise above, learn technique, learn parameters, understand eq, understand compression, understand how things sonically fit and how they don't, pay attention to your room and work (no matter your budget) to make it as trouble free as you can.

If you need room treatment tutorials look up Ethan Winers stuff. Read up on Bob Katz mastering technique and even more reveling his white paper on metering.

If you're micing understand that it is a lifelong mission to learn great technique and what worked yesterday may not work today.

Learn the software. Pro Tools, like all of the others, is endlessly deep. I see so many hot shot interns come through here that haven't a clue as to how to really take advantage of Pro Tools software. Many who bitch and wine about Digi's secret mission to screw the public are ill equipped to make those comments based upon their total ineptitude of understanding the software.

Record, make mistakes and record again. If something turns out less than stellar point the finger at the engineer NOT the Digi pre's. Don't rush out and buy something because of a failed session.

Really if you're in this (recording) to make great sounds, even if it's a hobby, you gotta realize that great engineering is a culmination of hard, hard work, knowledge, knowledge applied, failures, lessons learned and an understanding that it takes a lifetime to become a master.

It's NOT the pre's..

Rant over

Well said.

 

[Erockrazor]

Actually, you could use your own preamps on all the inputs, although admittedly 8 of them would have to go thru the line amps of the unit...

Yeah, thats what I meant when I said "(though they don't really leave you much of a choice". You can just plug you own pre's into the line inputs 1-4 or even the xlr inputs.

But yeah, youre right.

 

[dnkygirl]

You seem pretty committed to the conclusion Digi pres "suck". I respect that but could you specifically (sonically) compare and contrast exactly where the Digi pre's go bad in comparison to pre's you like?

Just what does make Digi pre's suck so bad?

Sonically they sound flat.. like a blanket is laid over them. I have played around with them and tried eqing them to give them some life, but it's sorta like a bad room thing... I don't have deep pockets... so going out and spending $2000-3000 grand on a pre is not what i wanted. I was looking for an all in one unit. I chose protools because i liked the work flow of the trial version of the software. So i bought a digi 001 first... then found that i wasn't able to take advantage of all the new midi tools in the newer versions, so i trading up to a 002r. This is where i am now. I'm also not an engineer.. i'm a home user...learning how to record and hopefully get a good sound with the interface and software i chose to do it with. I like pro-tools and this was not meant to be a digi bashing. There are some things about digi... just like microsoft i don't like, but i'm living with.... they are known and respected companys in their respective industries. I have been looking at the black lion mods... and seriously thinking about getting my 002r modified so that i won't have to spend lots of money on external gear to get a better sound.


Demi

 

[pezking]

I just don't understand how the pres are holding you back from making a great recording. No offence, but I think if you can't get a good sounding recording using a 002r there is another problem elsewhere; be it mics, instruments, room or technique. There is no reason why the preamps in this range of product should not meet, if not exceed the requirements of a home/semi pro studio.

I also think we need to be clear whether we are talking about the Digidesign Pre (a specific product) or the preamps in Digidesign's mbox and 00x range, I for one am getting confused!!

 

[MessianicDreams]

I just don't understand how the pres are holding you back from making a great recording. No offence, but I think if you can't get a good sounding recording using a 002r there is another problem elsewhere; be it mics, instruments, room or technique.

I have to say, I feel the same. I've done entire projects using the 002r including using its preamps, and whilst they aren't the best pres available they're certainly not what's going to hold back your average HR'er...

 

[Joseph Hanna]

Sonically they sound flat.. like a blanket is laid over them. I have been looking at the black lion mods... and seriously thinking about getting my 002r modified so that i won't have to spend lots of money on external gear to get a better sound.


Demi

Demi,

Ok that's cool. I'm glad you weren't Digi bashing cause "that way lies madness" and is as old and mis-guided as the day is long.

In the spirit of helping I'd really really think twice before getting the black lion mod. The Digi pre's simply DO NOT sound like there is a blanket over them. We just had a portion of the crew here testify that the Digi pre's suck because they're to transparent. The only common denominator here is the phase "Digi pre's suck". Some say they're dull, some say they're bright, some say they smear, some say they're transparent...does anybody really know?

The forum fueled train wreck about sucking Digi pre's is simply the users inability to make them work. There could be a thousand specifics, room, mic placement, poor instrument, a failure to recognize a resonant problem, bad gain staging ect, ect as to why a track sounds like there's a blanket over it.
And in all of this what frustrates me is this perpetuates the common reaction of home engineers to go buy something instead of investing in hard work. My intent here is not to point fingers but....

if every time a great audio engineer in past decided that because a mic'd track sounded like it had a blanket over it therefore a) it must be the equipment because it certainly CANNOT be the engineer and b) the logical solution to fix my bad mix is to buy something, there'd be no great engineers.

As long as you're inclined to pin your audio failures on something other than yourself you'll never have the spirit and motivation to do the hard work it takes (hobby or not) to get better.

The 002 and 003 are far more capable than most home users are prepared for and recording is not an easy art form. Please believe me. The fix for the blanket is NOT a black lion mod.

I'll shut up now

 

[Joseph Hanna]

I also think we need to be clear whether we are talking about the Digidesign Pre (a specific product) or the preamps in Digidesign's mbox and 00x range, I for one am getting confused!!

I don't think we do. M-Box pre's, 002 pre's, Motu pre's, M-Audio pre's they're all good enough to capture great audio. Split hairs when the other basic fundamentals are covered.

I'm just trying to stop the stampede to Guitar Center every time a track comes out poorly

 

[dnkygirl]

Demi,

if every time a great audio engineer in past decided that because a mic'd track sounded like it had a blanket over it therefore a) it must be the equipment because it certainly CANNOT be the engineer and b) the logical solution to fix my bad mix is to buy something, there'd be no great engineers.

As long as you're inclined to pin your audio failures on something other than yourself you'll never have the spirit and motivation to do the hard work it takes (hobby or not) to get better.

The 002 and 003 are far more capable than most home users are prepared for and recording is not an easy art form. Please believe me. The fix for the blanket is NOT a black lion mod.

I'll shut up now

I admit i'm no super engineer with tons of years of experience and training under my belt. There are many things in my recording space that need change.

My setup is basic, the 002r, a RodeNT1A mic, and headphone amp.
Instruments: korg triton studio, motif rack es, and reason 4 which i use way more than the other instruments. Mastering which i have really not dived deeply into I have a tascam CD-RW2000 and for convience of copying i have a tascam CD-D4000 MKII duplicator. My learning reference book set: the mixing engineer's handbook by bobby owsinski and i just started on reading the mastering engineer's handbook also by bobby ownsinski.

My greatest challenge has been vocals. My space is 11.5 X 11.5, which includes a small closet which is about 5 X 3 ... I am working on room treatment in the open area that i use for work space. I tried using the closet for vocals and that has been a total train wreck. On my last few projects i have started using the open work space, but still have the challenge of the blanket sound... even thou i have isolated the mic using a make shift heavy blanket sound booth with foam on the wall behind. The other problem is the computer fan... on every recording you can hear the low hum from it.

I'm also getting some sort of interference... in the low 1db range from the 002r mic pre. I have changed cabling and have had the mic checked to make sure it was not damaged.

Demi

 

[wreckd504]

Actually, the 888s were fairly poor interfaces considering how popular they become. They are fairly well known for having sub-standard converters in them - the new HD interfaces (192/96) are a REAL step up in quality.

Their popularity might have had something to do with that they were the first Pro Tools system to offer 24 bit recording, HD also came out 5 years later in 2002 - so I guess you would expect some form of improvement in all regards really.


To Demi - I'm in the same position about the black lion mod, but after talking to a lot of people and now reading Joseph Hanna's post, I think i'll save my money, and go back to reading my reference books and bettering my technique. I'm on a pretty tight budget and don't think it's going to make the difference that i'll be expecting. I suspect my technique is well below par and is the cause of the a lot of my "issues".

One thing that DID make a huge difference for me recently however was when I upgraded my rode nt1a. I bought a Rode classic II and the difference is phenomenal. Someone recently gave me some great advice, they said "Stop investing in technology if what you have is working and start buying more instruments, pre amps and microphones". I figured it wasn't any crazier than listening to anyone else, so I bought a few different types of mics, pre's and various guitars and basses and it's like I have a whole new palette.

Now I just have to coax the magic out of my fingers

I tried using the closet for vocals and that has been a total train wreck. On my last few projects i have started using the open work space, but still have the challenge of the blanket sound... even thou i have isolated the mic using a make shift heavy blanket sound booth with foam on the wall behind. The other problem is the computer fan... on every recording you can hear the low hum from it.

ok not to point out the obvious, but you are using a blanket sound booth and don't know why it sounds like you are using a blanket? If you can't afford a proper vocal booth this is working for me at the moment

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--STOMTG

The other problem is the computer fan... on every recording you can hear the low hum from it.

That is easily fixed. Get a better computer case that has "silent" features. This is what I use

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=81820

Also, get a cpu fan with an adjustable fan so you can adjust it depending on whether you are recording, and what the temperature of the room/computer is. Any cpu cooler with an adjustable fan will do, however I use the gigabyte 3d cooler pro for no reason other than it was easy to install

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-3d-cooler-pro,757.html

Also it might seem obvious, but when i'm recording I have the "mic thing" between my computer and the mic, and the mic with its back to my computer - i practically get no external noise.


Some more reading on silencing a computer

http://www.quietpcusa.com/articles/how_to_silence_a_computer.html

http://www.antec.com/pdf/article/info_DIYArticle_quiet_computing.html

 

[Joseph Hanna]

I admit i'm no super engineer with tons of years of experience and training under my belt. There are many things in my recording space that need change.

My setup is basic, the 002r, a RodeNT1A mic, and headphone amp.
Instruments: korg triton studio, motif rack es, and reason 4 which i use way more than the other instruments. Mastering which i have really not dived deeply into I have a tascam CD-RW2000 and for convience of copying i have a tascam CD-D4000 MKII duplicator. My learning reference book set: the mixing engineer's handbook by bobby owsinski and i just started on reading the mastering engineer's handbook also by bobby ownsinski.

My greatest challenge has been vocals. My space is 11.5 X 11.5, which includes a small closet which is about 5 X 3 ... I am working on room treatment in the open area that i use for work space. I tried using the closet for vocals and that has been a total train wreck. On my last few projects i have started using the open work space, but still have the challenge of the blanket sound... even thou i have isolated the mic using a make shift heavy blanket sound booth with foam on the wall behind. The other problem is the computer fan... on every recording you can hear the low hum from it.

I'm also getting some sort of interference... in the low 1db range from the 002r mic pre. I have changed cabling and have had the mic checked to make sure it was not damaged.

Demi

Demi,

Ok! Great to hear you describing your challenges. That's something I think we can all get behind and give some constructive comments and suggestions.

It takes time but spend as much of it (time) as you can reading through Ethan Winers various forum posts. He's great at explaining what makes a room screw up a mic and what can be done about it. He's of course gonna try to sell you his stuff but he's also VERY fair about distributing info for those that don't have deep pockets. The money you would have spent on black lion mod will go a gabillion miles farther on simple room treatment.

For now get out of any room 11.5 x 11.5. Stretch a mic cable to a bathroom or a kitchen or a den or a back porch. Don't expect it to be a solution to your bad mic sounds but do note the difference in sound. Keep experimenting. Give it time and experiment again. Get creative with mic placement..a little goes a long way. The great rooms from the 1970's, 80's and 90's were all tuned and floated. Millions of dollars invested in room specs alone. We're not living in those days so use your ears and find a George Martin moment. There are after all no rules of creativity.

You're gonna have failures as no great engineer/musician has ever escaped that. Listen to the Beatles Anthology DVD's and you can hear how they got better and better at the process of recording until they simply had the process mastered.

In the end it's a creative journey. I wish there were more folks that looked at there sonic short comings as incentive to improve their skills instead of worrying about the quality of Motu-vs-Digi converters.

This could be a great, positive topic for those that have overcome room problems and any similar micing problems to chime in with suggestions.

At least it's better than the hollow worthless bashing of Digi pre's. Yes??

 

[dnkygirl]

Thanks for the advice guys... it's great to see there are people on this board that are helpful once you get beyond the "BS".


Demi

 

[RD423]

You seem pretty committed to the conclusion Digi pres "suck". I respect that but could you specifically (sonically) compare and contrast exactly where the Digi pre's go bad in comparison to pre's you like?

Just what does make Digi pre's suck so bad?

I am not saying it like that which is why i put it in quotations, because a lot of ppl say that they do and I don't think so I was just quoting a couple of people on the boards here, I honestly think with a good mix the pre's don't have to be the greatest to get it sounding good. I like the pre's I don't think they are the greatest but they are good they will get the job done. I love the fact that the mbox 1 has focusrite pre's I wish my 002r had those as well, because I love focusrite pre's I actually own the voicemaster pro.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Back to the original question of a Pro-Tools in-between LE and HD, if you're talking software, there isn't all that much different. However, by the direction of the discussion, I can assume you were talking about the hardware side, vs. the software side.

Hardware-wise, The Digi002/3 is a pretty f*cking sweet piece of kit. If you can't make a good record using the 002 as your interface, you can't make a good record period. To those who feel differently, do you really think you've reached the pinnacle of engineerdom already? Is it really the equipment holding you back? I mean, sure, there are certainly interfaces that WILL hold you back (such as anything with less than 4 inputs), but for God's sake, the thing has 18 inputs to mess with! 4 of which have respectable pre-amps built right in! And the ADAT input gives you the ability to plug in basically any pre-amp out there, with the appropriate A/D converter. The point is, the 002 does not limit your hardware usage up to 18 channels.

To me, the big difference between LE and HD is the processing. With LE you need a monster of a computer to run a shit-ton of resource-intensive plug-ins: with HD, it's all on the cards, so the computer just has to handle the GUI and Hard Drives. So honestly, the step between LE and HD is a faster computer, with a better pre-amp, essentially. Chances are that upgrade will bring you somewhere between the intro price of LE, and the intro price of an HD rig. So there IS a Pro-Tools between LE and HD