ido1957
9K Gold Member
LOL - good one....
I always liked the "classic" guitar solos like:
- Hotel California
- Smoke on the Water
- The Wall
...and many more where the guitar literally speaks to you with a melody that is memorable
Interesting solos without speed
- Thread starter six
- Start date
I always liked the "classic" guitar solos like:
- Hotel California
- Smoke on the Water
- The Wall
...and many more where the guitar literally speaks to you with a melody that is memorable
Henry Mars
New member
No truer words need be spoken.
Nothin' funnier than watching some idiot play everything he knows in one 30 second solo.
Gear_Junky
New member
I'm currently (and for the past few years) in the same boat. I'm at the point, where I realize what I need to do, but don't have much time to practice it.
I remember reading a Dave Gilmour quote and he said to learn solos of saxophone players, "because an average sax player is much better than an average guitarist". along those lines.
But I think throwing in a faster turnaround or iterative "bridge"/"fill" along with slower solos can be effective too. Speed in music can translate in a more "up-beat" or "feel good" tune. Nothing wrong with that. But I agree - no point in mindless iterations/scales all the time.
I remember reading a Dave Gilmour quote and he said to learn solos of saxophone players, "because an average sax player is much better than an average guitarist". along those lines.
But I think throwing in a faster turnaround or iterative "bridge"/"fill" along with slower solos can be effective too. Speed in music can translate in a more "up-beat" or "feel good" tune. Nothing wrong with that. But I agree - no point in mindless iterations/scales all the time.
six
New member
Usually I'd agree, but Vai isn't exactly boring, and as much as I like B.B. King - he is very repetitive.
I gotta check out Ry Cooder, though. I quite like this bluesy / southern / country rock stuff anyway.
lpdeluxe
The Precision Bass Guy
I have a video that features Vai, and to me, he says everything he has to say in about a minute and a half. After that it's, yes, boring. I start to hunger for some sort of emotion or meaning or purpose. Lots and lots of notes don't satisfy.
Sorry, I just don't think of playing music as a horse race. The most meaningless comparison you can make between guitarists (or any other musician) is to say one is "faster" than the other.
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
one thing to try is starting with the vocal melody and going from there.
a couple of other interesting guitarists who don't (or can't) always rely on speed-- tom morello (for the former case) and the edge (the latter).
...er, so i guess have some cool pedals would be my other suggestion.
a couple of other interesting guitarists who don't (or can't) always rely on speed-- tom morello (for the former case) and the edge (the latter).
...er, so i guess have some cool pedals would be my other suggestion.
Well, what I'm getting at, combined with part 1 and 2, is to stop thinking of improv as different than composition. Rather than relying on stock licks, and cobbling your lines together from them, or meandering around until you find a good spot for one, try playing for just a measure. Try to match a line in your head with your fret board. Do this once every three measures or so, review what worked or didn't, try to think about what should come next, have it relate to what was played last.
Improv should just be accelerated composition.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Great, another anti-shred thread. 
Whoever said something about how a note held for three seconds can touch someone's soul, and that's the point of being a guitarist... Yes and no. I agree that the reason we all play guitar, if you exclude factors like "free beer" and "chicks dig guitarists," is to move listeners. At the end of the day, how good a solo is can't be measured by counting the number of notes played or measuring bpm, it's totally a factor of how effectively the guitarist managed to make you feel something when you hear him.
But, you know, that cuts both ways. If it's not about the note count, then playing fewer notes doesn't automatically make a solo better either, and you can't simply make blanket statements like "to move people, you need to hold a note for three seconds." That's simply not true - there are so many factors in play here it's not even funny. I could record a solo where I hold one note for ten seconds, and it'd sound like absolute crap, you know? Play something out of key, bend it slightly further off, and then bust out your best Kirk Hammet vibrato, and it's going to be almost painful to listen to. True, technically, you're making your listener "feel" something, but I think you and I both agree we're not talking about agony when we're talking about feelings.
So, what's the secret, then? Really, I guess, there isn't one, or rather there isn't "one." there's as many different ways to make your listener believe in you as there are guitarists, good ones anyhow, and a large part of finding your style and your voice as a player is finding one that works for you. I can give you a few things to think about that I've found valuable over the years, but really from that point out it's trial and error. So...
1.) work on your vibrato. Very few excellent melodic soloists have bad vibratos. Actually, scratch that - I can't think of a single melodic player worth his salt who's vibrato isn't at least OK. I'm not really blown away with Gilmour's, strangely (it's a little narrow and fast for me), but even then it's perfectly serviceable. Vibrato is sort of an after-thought for a lot of players, and really it shouldn't be.
2.) On the most fundamental level, music is entirely about tension and release. don't think of your solos in terms of the notes you're playing, but rather in the terms of how you're building or letting out tension. Look at this in a number of layers; how you want the tension to build (or alternatively not build) over the course of a solo, how you want to use tension to build movement over a particular set of chord changes, over a bar, over a measure, whatever. Also, think in terms of rhythmic tension (on the beat vs. off the beat), melodic tension (how's your chord theory and harmony? spending some time working out how different chords resolve into each other can be a VERY fruitful process), and, yes, technical tension (varying up fast notes and slow notes, etc). Those "three second sustained notes" CAN be pretty dramatic... but that's not because they're long and drawn out as such, but rather how the player builds into it.
3.) Work on your bending. Another no brainer, maybe, but a bend is a lot more than just a way to smoothly get from one pitch to another. One of my favorite solos in this respect is Albert King's "Personal Manager." In the main solo, there's a chorus where he simply plays one bent note over and over again, but each time he plays it it sounds different- sometimes he plays the pitch and bends up, sometimes he prebends and releases, sometimes he prebends and holds it, sometimes when he bends up he bends most of the way up very quickly and then slooooly eases up to pitch for the last few fractions of a step, sometimes he bends really slowly at first and then quicjkly jumps up to pitch right at the very end, sometimes he stays a little flat, sometimes he doesn't, et cetera. Track down a recording (I've got a compilation of his called "King of the Blues Guitar" that is pretty excellent listening), and then listen to that solo while thinking about how he's bending and about how he attacks each note. Then, pick up your guitar and try to recreate it. It's really a total technical tour de force, even if it's just a series of 8th notes.
I remember this jazz player I studied under during college, a guy named Paul Asbell. Great player, and a great teacher too. Right around the time Satriani's "Engines of Creation" came out we were talking about the album (he knew I was a huge Satriani fan), and I mentioned that the solo on "Until We Say Goodbye" was one of the best lead breaks I'd ever heard. He kind of chuckled and asked me to bring a copy in for him. The next time we met up we talked about it for a while, and he said something that kind of stuck with me that I'll paraphrase.
"The thing with guys like B.B. King, is they have this thing where they hit "that one perfect note," and it sounds great, but that's also all they can do. That's not a bad thing, it's just who they are as guitarists. I think it means something a little different when a guy like Satriani does it, because you know unlike King he's capable of blazing through 32nd notes all night long. When he does it, it's a conscious choice."
I thought that was a very interesting observation that I've thought a lot about in the years since. And, I think there's a lot of truth in that; to this day my favorite solos aren't the ones where it's just blazing legato run after blazing legato run, or a handful of slow notes, but generally they're solos that combine a good degree of technical aptitude with a great ear for melody. I personally think that THAT is the point of technique - to serve the melody and to make the melody that much more dramatic through contrast.
Food for thought...
PS - buy "The Wall." Listen to it on repeat for the next two months, give or take. Rent the movie, while you're at it. I'm not saying that's the only way to learn how to play interesting solos without relying on heavy technique, but it certainly can't hurt.
Whoever said something about how a note held for three seconds can touch someone's soul, and that's the point of being a guitarist... Yes and no. I agree that the reason we all play guitar, if you exclude factors like "free beer" and "chicks dig guitarists," is to move listeners. At the end of the day, how good a solo is can't be measured by counting the number of notes played or measuring bpm, it's totally a factor of how effectively the guitarist managed to make you feel something when you hear him.
But, you know, that cuts both ways. If it's not about the note count, then playing fewer notes doesn't automatically make a solo better either, and you can't simply make blanket statements like "to move people, you need to hold a note for three seconds." That's simply not true - there are so many factors in play here it's not even funny. I could record a solo where I hold one note for ten seconds, and it'd sound like absolute crap, you know? Play something out of key, bend it slightly further off, and then bust out your best Kirk Hammet vibrato, and it's going to be almost painful to listen to. True, technically, you're making your listener "feel" something, but I think you and I both agree we're not talking about agony when we're talking about feelings.
So, what's the secret, then? Really, I guess, there isn't one, or rather there isn't "one." there's as many different ways to make your listener believe in you as there are guitarists, good ones anyhow, and a large part of finding your style and your voice as a player is finding one that works for you. I can give you a few things to think about that I've found valuable over the years, but really from that point out it's trial and error. So...
1.) work on your vibrato. Very few excellent melodic soloists have bad vibratos. Actually, scratch that - I can't think of a single melodic player worth his salt who's vibrato isn't at least OK. I'm not really blown away with Gilmour's, strangely (it's a little narrow and fast for me), but even then it's perfectly serviceable. Vibrato is sort of an after-thought for a lot of players, and really it shouldn't be.
2.) On the most fundamental level, music is entirely about tension and release. don't think of your solos in terms of the notes you're playing, but rather in the terms of how you're building or letting out tension. Look at this in a number of layers; how you want the tension to build (or alternatively not build) over the course of a solo, how you want to use tension to build movement over a particular set of chord changes, over a bar, over a measure, whatever. Also, think in terms of rhythmic tension (on the beat vs. off the beat), melodic tension (how's your chord theory and harmony? spending some time working out how different chords resolve into each other can be a VERY fruitful process), and, yes, technical tension (varying up fast notes and slow notes, etc). Those "three second sustained notes" CAN be pretty dramatic... but that's not because they're long and drawn out as such, but rather how the player builds into it.
3.) Work on your bending. Another no brainer, maybe, but a bend is a lot more than just a way to smoothly get from one pitch to another. One of my favorite solos in this respect is Albert King's "Personal Manager." In the main solo, there's a chorus where he simply plays one bent note over and over again, but each time he plays it it sounds different- sometimes he plays the pitch and bends up, sometimes he prebends and releases, sometimes he prebends and holds it, sometimes when he bends up he bends most of the way up very quickly and then slooooly eases up to pitch for the last few fractions of a step, sometimes he bends really slowly at first and then quicjkly jumps up to pitch right at the very end, sometimes he stays a little flat, sometimes he doesn't, et cetera. Track down a recording (I've got a compilation of his called "King of the Blues Guitar" that is pretty excellent listening), and then listen to that solo while thinking about how he's bending and about how he attacks each note. Then, pick up your guitar and try to recreate it. It's really a total technical tour de force, even if it's just a series of 8th notes.
I remember this jazz player I studied under during college, a guy named Paul Asbell. Great player, and a great teacher too. Right around the time Satriani's "Engines of Creation" came out we were talking about the album (he knew I was a huge Satriani fan), and I mentioned that the solo on "Until We Say Goodbye" was one of the best lead breaks I'd ever heard. He kind of chuckled and asked me to bring a copy in for him. The next time we met up we talked about it for a while, and he said something that kind of stuck with me that I'll paraphrase.
"The thing with guys like B.B. King, is they have this thing where they hit "that one perfect note," and it sounds great, but that's also all they can do. That's not a bad thing, it's just who they are as guitarists. I think it means something a little different when a guy like Satriani does it, because you know unlike King he's capable of blazing through 32nd notes all night long. When he does it, it's a conscious choice."
I thought that was a very interesting observation that I've thought a lot about in the years since. And, I think there's a lot of truth in that; to this day my favorite solos aren't the ones where it's just blazing legato run after blazing legato run, or a handful of slow notes, but generally they're solos that combine a good degree of technical aptitude with a great ear for melody. I personally think that THAT is the point of technique - to serve the melody and to make the melody that much more dramatic through contrast.
Food for thought...
PS - buy "The Wall." Listen to it on repeat for the next two months, give or take. Rent the movie, while you're at it. I'm not saying that's the only way to learn how to play interesting solos without relying on heavy technique, but it certainly can't hurt.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
wow-- great post, but if that post were a guitar solo it would have been like 128 measures
:lol: I write instrumental guitar music, dude, what'd you expect, an 8-bar quicky?
...besides, while I sold my soul to the finance world, my degree's in literature. I'm incapable of writing anything fewer than two or three paragraphs.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Yeah I gotta say I'm getty pretty tired of reading posts that lump all "fast" players into one "technical guys" pile that all play "like machines and with no emotion" whatsoever.
I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. Listen to "For the Love of God" by Vai. If you don't think emotion is being displayed in the solo, then I don't know what emotion is. And if you think Vai is an "unemotional" person, then you obviously don't know anything about him. Read some interviews with him and you'll hear how he goes about (and has gone about) trying to put as much emotion into his playing as possible.
Obviously, plenty of people will now say, "haha ... he's trying to be emotional and he still sounds like a machine??!!" But to each his own. I hear loads of emotion in a lot of his playing. And then a lot of it I don't. But I could say the same thing of every player I've ever heard. Even the most "emotional packed" blues guys, like B.B., Stevie, Albert King, etc., have at times sounded to me as though they were going through the motions. My point is, he's concentrating on making the notes count, which is exactly what everyone's advice is here.
Think about it. How many times can you play the same lick and still feel authentic about it? And many of those blues guys play the same licks ... a lot, because they don't have a very big vocabulary. That's one thing that you can't say so much about Vai. He doesn't repeat himself very often. And I'm a big B.B. fan, but by far my favorite stuff is his early stuff, when he sounded very fresh, hungry, and vital (and those licks sounded that way too).
I'm not a huge Vai fan anymore (I think Passion and Warfare and Flexible are his best by far), and this is not just about Vai. I'm just using him as a kind of a flagship for the "technical guys" camp. There are others that I find emotional and others I don't (Michael Angelo falls into the latter, for instance).
And I'm certainly not dissing blues. I play a lot of blues myself.
I'm saying that dissing a solo just because it's got some fast licks is just silly. It's the same line of thinking as liking solos just because they have fast licks.
And I'm not dissing this topic; I think it's interesting. But the OP didn't really say that speed = bad or cold. And that's my point. It has its place, just like a well phrased single, sustained note.
Check out Allan Holdsworth's "Devil Take the Hindmost." That solo is messed up. But it's very accessible compared to most of his stuff. He's playing over this basic Gm rock groove, but what he plays over it just about rips your ear off. It's got some blazing licks, some very singable melodies, and some really outside stuff that'll yank your head. I'm not a huge Holdsworth fan, but that solo is one of my favorites.
Of course, that's not an "interesting solo without speed," because it does have some speed.
So, in the spirit of the topic, I'll suggest "Lenny" by SRV. Not too much speed in there, but it's a textbook example of mixing major and minor pentatonics.
I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. Listen to "For the Love of God" by Vai. If you don't think emotion is being displayed in the solo, then I don't know what emotion is. And if you think Vai is an "unemotional" person, then you obviously don't know anything about him. Read some interviews with him and you'll hear how he goes about (and has gone about) trying to put as much emotion into his playing as possible.
Obviously, plenty of people will now say, "haha ... he's trying to be emotional and he still sounds like a machine??!!" But to each his own. I hear loads of emotion in a lot of his playing. And then a lot of it I don't. But I could say the same thing of every player I've ever heard. Even the most "emotional packed" blues guys, like B.B., Stevie, Albert King, etc., have at times sounded to me as though they were going through the motions. My point is, he's concentrating on making the notes count, which is exactly what everyone's advice is here.
Think about it. How many times can you play the same lick and still feel authentic about it? And many of those blues guys play the same licks ... a lot, because they don't have a very big vocabulary. That's one thing that you can't say so much about Vai. He doesn't repeat himself very often. And I'm a big B.B. fan, but by far my favorite stuff is his early stuff, when he sounded very fresh, hungry, and vital (and those licks sounded that way too).
I'm not a huge Vai fan anymore (I think Passion and Warfare and Flexible are his best by far), and this is not just about Vai. I'm just using him as a kind of a flagship for the "technical guys" camp. There are others that I find emotional and others I don't (Michael Angelo falls into the latter, for instance).
And I'm certainly not dissing blues. I play a lot of blues myself.
I'm saying that dissing a solo just because it's got some fast licks is just silly. It's the same line of thinking as liking solos just because they have fast licks.
And I'm not dissing this topic; I think it's interesting. But the OP didn't really say that speed = bad or cold. And that's my point. It has its place, just like a well phrased single, sustained note.
Check out Allan Holdsworth's "Devil Take the Hindmost." That solo is messed up. But it's very accessible compared to most of his stuff. He's playing over this basic Gm rock groove, but what he plays over it just about rips your ear off. It's got some blazing licks, some very singable melodies, and some really outside stuff that'll yank your head. I'm not a huge Holdsworth fan, but that solo is one of my favorites.
Of course, that's not an "interesting solo without speed," because it does have some speed.
So, in the spirit of the topic, I'll suggest "Lenny" by SRV. Not too much speed in there, but it's a textbook example of mixing major and minor pentatonics.
famous beagle
Well-known member
:lol: I write instrumental guitar music, dude, what'd you expect, an 8-bar quicky?
...besides, while I sold my soul to the finance world, my degree's in literature. I'm incapable of writing anything fewer than two or three paragraphs.
Don't sell yourself short. You accomplished that very feat here!
dementedchord
Psychotic State alumni ch
that's a miles davis quote...
i dont dis people like vai... most of the people who do seem to be incapable of playing it themselves or is they think they can??? hmmmn have to think about that abit...
my nominee for best guitarist on the planet is larry carlton... tasty licks... plenty of soul... and every once in awhile he shows you he can do the fast thing too... check out albums room 335 and lightning strickes twice...
, but dammit...I am playing!!!!....
leddy
Well-known member
I don't think this was intended to be an anit-shred thread. Technical facility is always important, at least to the extent that it gives you the freedom to play the music you "hear" in your head.
If you are hearing stuff and you can't play it, then it's time to get back in the woodshed.
If you are hearing stuff and you can't play it, then it's time to get back in the woodshed.
Some really good advice here!!!!
I came to guitar late in life after spending many years on drums and keyboards. I khew I would never get lightning licks - so I talked to many of the guitarists I worked with to ask this same question - how to play interesting solos without a lot of fast chops.
I was told many of the things that have been provided here:
1. Learn how to bend notes
2. Learn how to use vibrato (I still find doing this well to be a challenge)
3. Learn how to get good sustain and hold notes
4. Learn the importance of space (what you don't play)
5. Learn to use the songs melody as a spring board
6. Study the solos of horn players
7. Keep the solo in the same "pocket" as the groove of the song
I don't gig (as a guitarist) - but I do play most of the guitar parts on my recordings. On occasion I've asked "real" guitarists to replace parts I've already tracked (thinking my parts were not good enough - oh the insecurity of musicians
) - and I'm surprised how often they suggest there is no need because I played what was right for the song......so following the 7 suggestions above certainly worked for me.
I came to guitar late in life after spending many years on drums and keyboards. I khew I would never get lightning licks - so I talked to many of the guitarists I worked with to ask this same question - how to play interesting solos without a lot of fast chops.
I was told many of the things that have been provided here:
1. Learn how to bend notes
2. Learn how to use vibrato (I still find doing this well to be a challenge)
3. Learn how to get good sustain and hold notes
4. Learn the importance of space (what you don't play)
5. Learn to use the songs melody as a spring board
6. Study the solos of horn players
7. Keep the solo in the same "pocket" as the groove of the song
I don't gig (as a guitarist) - but I do play most of the guitar parts on my recordings. On occasion I've asked "real" guitarists to replace parts I've already tracked (thinking my parts were not good enough - oh the insecurity of musicians
) - and I'm surprised how often they suggest there is no need because I played what was right for the song......so following the 7 suggestions above certainly worked for me.
Mish
New member
One of the folks here dropped a priceless line in another thread -
1. Just because you can shred, doesn't mean you have to
2. Just because you can't shred, doesn't mean shredding sucks.
There's the reason why EVH and Zakk Wylde are my favorite guitarists - they apply to both of the above. Both can play very fast, yet both have extremely emotional slow solos. Like Van Halen's "Not Enough/Year to the Day" and BLS's "Just Killing Time/In This River".
One of my personal favorite solos is in Jimmy Eat World's "23" song. Anyone could play it, now to write it - that's another matter.
Writing an interesting solo is like writing an interesting song.
1. Just because you can shred, doesn't mean you have to
2. Just because you can't shred, doesn't mean shredding sucks.
There's the reason why EVH and Zakk Wylde are my favorite guitarists - they apply to both of the above. Both can play very fast, yet both have extremely emotional slow solos. Like Van Halen's "Not Enough/Year to the Day" and BLS's "Just Killing Time/In This River".
One of my personal favorite solos is in Jimmy Eat World's "23" song. Anyone could play it, now to write it - that's another matter.
Writing an interesting solo is like writing an interesting song.