CyanJaguar
New member
xstatic said:Anyway you look at it, I would rather mix blindly than deafly
....Touche
If you are not mixing with a sub...
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....Touche
CyanJaguar
New member
mshilarious said:OK, let's say you have some ugly noise, -80dBFS @ 15 kHz. Let's say you are monitoring at 75 dBSPL, C-weighted. Using Katz' K-14 scale, that means that noise is something like 9 dB. Most adults cannot hear 15kHz at 9dBSPL. Has nothing to do with training, they are physically unable to hear it.
However, as soon as somebody pops that mix in their player and cranks it, there will be that high-pitched squeal, standing out during quiet parts
Also, the OSHA permissible SPL for 8 hours of exposure is 90dBSPL, A-weighted, not 85dB:
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9735&p_table=STANDARDS
interesting. according to your link,continuous monitoring must be performed if workers are exposed to levels above 85dbs, because damage can occur when one is subjected to extended levels above 85dbs
secondly, music with a lot of quiet parts played at cranked levels sounds oxymoronic, as in a deafening silence
CyanJaguar
New member
giraffe said:i guess all my shit sucks.
it's not tallent that i need
nor room treatment
it's a sub!
seriously dude, this is homerecording, not professional work. room treatment is going a little too far. That is why we use nearfields.
Unless, of course, by room treatment you mean, carpeting, a couple of couches, and a couple of bookcases. in that case, its all good.
mshilarious
Banned
CyanJaguar said:
That is true. You should calibrate your monitors so you know they are not too loud.
secondly, music with a lot of quiet parts played at cranked levels sounds oxymoronic, as in a deafening silence
That should not be the case. The quiet parts should be quiet and the loud parts loud.
Properly calibrated monitors will closely reproduce the natural level of music. Of course rock music will tend to be quieter recorded than live, but a classical recording at say -20dBRMS, with peak levels set at 95dBSPL, will be very close to live performance levels. Rock music is recorded around 6dB hotter (or more, but let's not go there), but even then the average level is not troublesome.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
No, that is indeed feasable. It's up to the quality of each of the elements, I suppose. If the sub is better at 80 than the woof there. I guess I'd have to ask myself, though, that if my mains can't handle 80Hz, what the hell am I doing with them?noisewreck said:
Conversely, if my sub is so efficient way up there, just how accurate is it going to be down at 15? I'd have to wonder.There is also the question of where one wants the crossover to happen. Now, I'll admit, that I'm kind of pushing the extent of my knowledge here, I am not a pro (or even an amateur) loudspeaker designer. But My understanding is that in general, you want to select crossover points that are not near the "sweet spot" of a given driver, otherwise you're wasing the best qualities of that driver, and that you want to have your crossover at what you consider to be a relatively "unimportant" point in the spectrum, because at that crossover point is where the reprodiction is going to be renderd the least accurately. If one is OK with crossing over at 80Hz after considering the above factors, then I guess I see no reason to say don't do it.
Perhaps someone more qualified than I could correct me here if I'm starting to swerve off course.
While speaker diameter is important, there is more to it than that. Way way back when I was a pimply teenager, my first self-owned home stereo had 3-way speakers with 15" woofers (Remember the Realistic "Mach Ones", anybody?mshilarious said:
). These speakers had a lot of bass, but they certainly were not even close to being subwoofers. On the other hand, I think we've all heard consumer and pro speakers with 10" - or even dual 10" - woofers that couldn't carry a 60Hz hum in basket. Unlike when a woman says that size isn't everything, when I say it I actually mean it
. There's also the mass of the magnet, the design of the crossover, the design of the cone and it's surround, and - a big feature I neglected to mention before - the design of the cabinet.How is it that a pair of 8" 2-ways that come with a Sharp bookshelf compact stereo from Best Buy have only about a quarter of the frequency range and accuracy that that from a pair of quality 8" 2-way passive studio monitors from Sweetwater?
Sorry, CJ.CyanJaguar said:
I guess it's the same reason that John Madden says stuff like, "They gotta use the tailback to pick up the blitzing safety coming through the stunting linemen if the quarterback is going to have time to check off his receivers in a cover two." Because that's the vocabulary of American football. And because lay terms didn't work for the first few posts .G.
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SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
"I put a blank tape into my stereo, pressed 'Play' and cranked the volume all the way up. The mimes that lived next door called and asked me to turn it down." - Steven Wright.CyanJaguar said:secondly, music with a lot of quiet parts played at cranked levels sounds oxymoronic, as in a deafening silence
Seriously, CJ, just where have you BEEN for your last 3000 posts and counting?CyanJaguar said:
G.
mshilarious
Banned
SouthSIDE Glen said:
All completely true, but for my purposes we can stipulate high grade components and proper crossover and cabinet design (most of the time I rely on expert advice for such matters--most of the time
).Quality of components does get back to the original issue about the need for a sub with low-end drivers, hence my use of Mackie as an example, since many of their lesser competitors are going to use lower grade components and take design shortcuts that will harm their response at a given woofer size vs. the Mackie. Actually Mackie is probably a bad comparison given their use of passive radiators.
mshilarious
Banned
SouthSIDE Glen said:No, that is indeed feasable. It's up to the quality of each of the elements, I suppose. If the sub is better at 80 than the woof there. I guess I'd have to ask myself, though, that if my mains can't handle 80Hz, what the hell am I doing with them?
Going along with your point re: sweet spots, sure the mains can do 80Hz, but they might begin to slightly roll off at that point. Also, 100Hz is the usually stated cutoff for directionality of sound. Thus that range is somewhat a natural point to crossover.
After lots of testing, I got the flattest response from my system with a crossover at 105Hz.
Also, most woofers will be more efficient at higher frequencies than bass, even up to 1kHz. The driver I am using is flat from 70 Hz (tested in a sealed box) to about 200Hz, then it starts rising!
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Could you point me to where that may be stated? I'm not saying you are wrong, or necessarily that whatever documentation that said that is wrong. I just want to read it, maybe I'll learn something. Because based upon my current understanding of physics, there is no "cutoff point" for directionality; degree of directionality is linearly proportional to wavelength; its a smooth function. Maybe I'm wrong about that.mshilarious said:
I have also heard that in Europe they like to cross over at 100 and in the US at 60 or 120, because this minimizes the amount of fundamental or first harmonic AC hum they hear coming across. Great idea for playback for enoyment, lousy idea for playback for mixing or mastering. You want to hear the noise, not supress it.
Probably not uncommon.mshilarious said:
I guess this may in many technical respects be one of those "there's more than one way..." things. You've made some good points that I can't disagree with.
Yet I just can't get past the ideas:
- that if one needs to use a sub to replace three whole octaves of poor reproduction in the mains, then the problem is that they have bad mains, not that they need a sub.
- that subwoofers are supposed to provide subsonics, not bass (even if they are capable of the bass.) Using a subwoofer as a woofer just seems to me to be using a hammer to drive in a slot screw. Wrong tool for the job, even if it seems to work.
- that crossing over anywhere between, say, 50Hz and 220Hz (give or take) - especially in the area between 90 and 120 - is throwing your crossover right into the middle of the meatiest part of the bass frequencies that do most of the heavy lifting. I'd tend to think that I'd want to keep my crossover point well away from such areas.
I conceed much of what you have said, but I gotta stick to my guns when it comes to my original premises:
- that quality mains are far more important than having a sub
- that a quality sub cannot make up for inferior mains
- that one is better spending X amount of bucks on mains alone or even mains and treatment than they are the same amount on mains and a sub...with the music genre caveats I gave before.
- and that excellent mixes can easily be made without ever going near a subwoofer.
Wanna agree to disagree on this one?
Two good points of view. We'll let the readers decide for themselves. G.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
apl,apl said:
Good analogy. Also, I just retired my Lumina after ony 106K miles and a whopping 9 fuel injectors in the past 3 years
. Hope you have had better luck with yours.I've replaced it with a new Impala this summer, but this time I'm putting Ultimate in the tank every 2nd or 3rd tankful (my mechanic's suggestion; he says the Chevy injectors are notorious, and they really need the treatment to keep clean.) Just a tip for ya.
G.
mshilarious
Banned
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Without looking for a link, I believe you are correct. 100 Hz is more of a rule-of-thumb.
I agree. I said in the beginning if you had 8" mains, you could probably live without it. That makes the case that maybe nobody should be using 6"s. But then if someone has 6"s, should they replace the mains, or get a sub? The sub will add subsonic frequencies as well as covering the weakness of the 6" in the bass range. It's a cost : performance issue as well as a theoretical one.
See, I wonder how intentional the label "subwoofer" really is. I think it's more marketing than an actual intended direct reference to subsonics, especially in the consumer market, where true reproduction of bass frequencies is a rare animal indeed. I know from unfortunate long-ago experience that the Bose satellite system's "sub" can't manage it
Wanna agree to disagree on this one?
No. As I said, I'm thinking of moving away from the use of a sub myself, but not for the same reasons. Any time you add another driver range, you have to add an active or passive crossover stage. Quality passive sub crossover components are quite expensive, so it's rare to see them. I played with one awhile before abandoning the idea. On the other hand, an active stage means more opamps & more capacitors in the signal path. Getting that right isn't cheap either. In the interest of transparency, I'd really like to dump the whole affair.
apl
Stand Up Comity
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You are correct, to a point.
The sound hits the ears, and the little hairs in the cochlea vibrate. The hairs are tuned to specific frequencies. The brain can sense the phase difference between the 250Hz hair in the right and left ears and uses that to calculate direction, along with some other information like echos off the floor or walls. Since the ears are only so far apart, the phase difference between the ears gets smaller and smaller as the frequency gets smaller, and it's harder for the brain to guess where it's coming from.
The human ear is an amazing random event of nature. Equally amazing is the the chinchilla accidentally ended up with a very similar ear. Scientists expose chinchillas to damaging sounds and then hack their ears out to see what happened to them. The conservative scientists then grill the chinchillas.
How do determine direction, using our ears...
Actually it is a little different than that...
Above about 700Hz (depends on the size of your head and distance between your ears), your brain uses Interaural Level Difference (ILD) as the primary factor in determining the directional location of a sound. ILD is the difference in level between your two ears.
Below 700Hz, your brain begins to rely on the Interaural Time Difference (ITD) between your ears (or phase shift) to determine the directional location of a sound. This works very well until the wavelengths get very long, the source becomes omni-directional (spherically - not "non" directional) and you are in an enclosed space. In an enclosed space (such as a studio), with a source that is radiating spherically (such as a subwoofer), the ITD will be close to zero and you will have very little directional acuity at these low frequencies. However, you will have very high directional acuity at higher frequencies and because your directional cues are coming from the main speakers or SATs (which typically are playing the harmonics of the LF fundamentals), that is where your brain believes the sound is coming from.
Hope that helps...
Cheers!
apl said:
Actually it is a little different than that...
Above about 700Hz (depends on the size of your head and distance between your ears), your brain uses Interaural Level Difference (ILD) as the primary factor in determining the directional location of a sound. ILD is the difference in level between your two ears.
Below 700Hz, your brain begins to rely on the Interaural Time Difference (ITD) between your ears (or phase shift) to determine the directional location of a sound. This works very well until the wavelengths get very long, the source becomes omni-directional (spherically - not "non" directional) and you are in an enclosed space. In an enclosed space (such as a studio), with a source that is radiating spherically (such as a subwoofer), the ITD will be close to zero and you will have very little directional acuity at these low frequencies. However, you will have very high directional acuity at higher frequencies and because your directional cues are coming from the main speakers or SATs (which typically are playing the harmonics of the LF fundamentals), that is where your brain believes the sound is coming from.
Hope that helps...
Cheers!
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
apl and BlueSky:
Wonderful information from both of you, all new to me. Very appreciated!
However (oh, there's that damn "however" again ) I was referring to something entirely different. Instead of referring to how human physiology interprets sounds, I was referring to the actual physics of the soundwaves themselves, and the fact that even if there is no human in a room, the "directionality" or dispersion characteristics of the sound varies more-or-less proportionately with the wavelength of the sound wave (not counting reflections).
If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, will the low frequencies of the thud still disperse wider and further than the high frequencies of the rustling of the leaves? Yes.
mshilarious:
Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding your actual position. I guess we were just hammering at the technicalities of our arguments. A shame we didn't share a few beers while we did that, it was real bar talk.
I do still think you are placing too much importance on speaker size, though. There are so many other elements involved. I've lost count - not that I was keeping it to begin with - of the number of loudspeaker systems with smaller low side speaker elements that delivered better bass response than other systems with larger ones. In theory, the larger the driver the better equipped it is for bass, of course. In practice, though, it doesn't always turn out that way.
Glad to hear your analysis of the crossover issue, though. We are in agreement on that one.
G.
Wonderful information from both of you, all new to me. Very appreciated!
However (oh, there's that damn "however" again
) I was referring to something entirely different. Instead of referring to how human physiology interprets sounds, I was referring to the actual physics of the soundwaves themselves, and the fact that even if there is no human in a room, the "directionality" or dispersion characteristics of the sound varies more-or-less proportionately with the wavelength of the sound wave (not counting reflections).If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, will the low frequencies of the thud still disperse wider and further than the high frequencies of the rustling of the leaves? Yes.
mshilarious:
Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding your actual position. I guess we were just hammering at the technicalities of our arguments. A shame we didn't share a few beers while we did that, it was real bar talk.
I do still think you are placing too much importance on speaker size, though. There are so many other elements involved. I've lost count - not that I was keeping it to begin with
- of the number of loudspeaker systems with smaller low side speaker elements that delivered better bass response than other systems with larger ones. In theory, the larger the driver the better equipped it is for bass, of course. In practice, though, it doesn't always turn out that way.Glad to hear your analysis of the crossover issue, though. We are in agreement on that one.
G.
mshilarious
Banned
SouthSIDE Glen said:mshilarious:
Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding your actual position. I guess we were just hammering at the technicalities of our arguments. A shame we didn't share a few beers while we did that, it was real bar talk.
Oh, I was drinking
I'm not sure where I read this, but if I remember right (likely hood unknown ) the directionality of a sound wave is determined by the size of the room.
I can't remember if I got that from Everest, Ethan, or Sayer's site, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading it at one of those places. It makes sense, but I could be wrong so take it for what it's worth.
my $0.005
) the directionality of a sound wave is determined by the size of the room.I can't remember if I got that from Everest, Ethan, or Sayer's site, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading it at one of those places. It makes sense, but I could be wrong so take it for what it's worth.
my $0.005
noisewreck
New member
Great thread! A lot of interesting points that I hadn't thought about, and it was all very educational.