Hooking up effects I need some advice

[sweetbeats]

It not abnormal to have to re-patch connections for the different recording stages, and that does make it nice the connections are on the control surface.

A mono summing function would be a button that, when pressed, makes the stereo field you hear in the headphones all in the center. This would be handy since you don't have any program groups on the M-08, but rather just the main L-R buss...let's say you have vocal on channel 1 and guitar on channel 2, and you want to record those to tracks 1 & 2 respectively...channel 1 will be panned hard L, and channel 2 will be panned hard R in order to get those sources by themselves on those tracks right? So now what you hear in the cans is your voice all the way to the L and the guitar all the way to the R. A mono function would let you hear those sources in the cans in the center of the field while they are still isolated L and R for your tracks at the main outputs of the M-08. Does that make sense? I know for me it is distracting when I don't have control of the stereo imaging for CUE monitoring. It may not bother you in which case there's no need for a mono function.

 

[RFR]

I dont like having to re patch stuff. But some IS necessary.

One one the beautiful things about having enough mixer channels, is you can pan and set levels to your hearts content. Your actually setting up a mix/ headphone mix while you're tracking. No need for a mono switch.
All while being able to keep your tracking channels alone. It comes in handy when re-doing a part. All settings are still the same.

I'm sure with some study your mixer could be set up in a similar workflow. (at least I think so, i haven't studied it.)

Oh, you mentioned cables earlier. How about instead of buying them, just custom make them?

 

[famous beagle]

Because only channels 1-4 have an insert, my mixdown has to be something like channels4-7 and tracking is 1,2,3, and 8 so I can use my compressor

I'm not following you here. Why wouldn't you use channels 1-4 for mixdown?

 

[sweetbeats]

I dont like having to re patch stuff. But some IS necessary.

One one the beautiful things about having enough mixer channels, is you can pan and set levels to your hearts content. Your actually setting up a mix/ headphone mix while you're tracking. No need for a mono switch.
All while being able to keep your tracking channels alone. It comes in handy when re-doing a part. All settings are still the same.

I'm sure with some study your mixer could be set up in a similar workflow. (at least I think so, i haven't studied it.)

Oh, you mentioned cables earlier. How about instead of buying them, just custom make them?

The M-08 has no subgroups or really any features of a monitor buss...there are only 4 outputs period (aside from the inserts): the aux outs and the main buss out. That's it. Any mixing he does during tracking as far as placement in the stereo field will reflect on tape. He can't separate those two with the M-08. He could accomplish this using the CUE mixer on the 234, but that's another step.

 

[RFR]

Gotcha. I'm not familiar with that mixer. Its sounding like it's more designed to be a small format live console.

Ok then. Patch away I guess it is!

 

[sweetbeats]

Yes. That's precisely what it is.

 

[bachelorb]

I'm not following you here. Why wouldn't you use channels 1-4 for mixdown?

Because CH 1-4 also have the XLR connectors and phantom power and I love the sound of a acoustic guitar through a condenser mic rather than a pickup

 

[bachelorb]

Yesterday, when I was messing with the board, I was recording each channel and trying to listen back while overdubbing. For some reason, using inserts as outs kills monitoring on the mixer. I ended up hooking an rca cable from the 234's "Cue Out" to the mixers "Tape in" (which might be what SB is talking about????....maybe????)

Oh, you mentioned cables earlier. How about instead of buying them, just custom make them?

You and I are thinking along the same lines.... except I am just lazy enough to use premade cables and snip off one end....



These look to be the proper under the trailer bed thickness specification......

 

[sweetbeats]

Yes, Brad, that's what I was meaning...you then adjust your cue mix using the controls on the 234, while the TAPE switch is latched on the M-08. Be careful about the TO L-R switch...that will send the tape playback back to the tape deck through the main outs and, depending on the status of the input monitoring on the 234 you might could create a feedback loop.

When using the inserts as outputs, depending on how the insert jack is configured, could "break" the signal to the mixer channel if it is a "normalling" jack, or if the right type of cable isn't inserted or if the cable isn't fully inserted. Often times you have to modify a TRS cable (link the tip and ring terminals) so you can get "sniff" the signal with the cable in the insert jack but not interrupt the signal reaching the rest of the mixer channel.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

For some reason, using inserts as outs kills monitoring on the mixer.

There's switching in the jack* to connect the send and return when there's no plug inserted. When you insert a plug into the jack it defeats that connection and cuts signal downstream of the insert. You can build an "insert tap" cable by clipping one end of a standard instrument cable and replacing it with a TRS, with the conductor connected to both tip and ring. Plug the TRS end into the insert jack. That will restore signal to the channel path.

[Edit] I should have read sweetbeats post more carefully as he explained it well enough before I even posted.

*American rather than British usage.

 

[famous beagle]

Because CH 1-4 also have the XLR connectors and phantom power and I love the sound of a acoustic guitar through a condenser mic rather than a pickup

Right, but that's for tracking ... not mixdown. You said my mixdown has to be something like channels4-7. I'm not following that.

 

[famous beagle]

Yes, Brad, that's what I was meaning...you then adjust your cue mix using the controls on the 234, while the TAPE switch is latched on the M-08. Be careful about the TO L-R switch...that will send the tape playback back to the tape deck through the main outs and, depending on the status of the input monitoring on the 234 you might could create a feedback loop.

When using the inserts as outputs, depending on how the insert jack is configured, could "break" the signal to the mixer channel if it is a "normalling" jack, or if the right type of cable isn't inserted or if the cable isn't fully inserted. Often times you have to modify a TRS cable (link the tip and ring terminals) so you can get "sniff" the signal with the cable in the insert jack but not interrupt the signal reaching the rest of the mixer channel.

Cory, why can't he, while tracking, just use CHs 1-4 for tracking, using only the "send" signal of the insert jacks as direct outs to the 234's inputs, and then use CHs 5-8 on the Tascam mixer for playback? This way he won't have to worry about any feedback loops, correct? Or am I missing something?

Then on mixdown, he can use CHs 1-4 for playback because he'll have full control of the panning and levels, etc.

Keep in mind that I've never used a 234 before and so i don't know about the cue mix.

 

[sweetbeats]

That would work just fine, but the only problem is that would then take away the option of using the inserts for their intended purpose during tracking or mixdown.

 

[RFR]

Not really. For example, you want to insert a compressor; Click the plug in halfway to get the send signal > take that cable and plug into the input of the comp > run another cable from the output of the comp into the tape deck.

Then run a cable from the tape out jack of the deck to input (s) 5 through 8 for monitoring.

For mixdown you could pull all the cables going to tape cause they wouldn't be needed anymore.

Unless I'm a moron, which is a possibility, that should work.

 

[famous beagle]

Not really. For example, you want to insert a compressor; Click the plug in halfway to get the send signal > take that cable and plug into the input of the comp > run another cable from the output of the comp into the tape deck.

Then run a cable from the tape out jack of the deck to input (s) 5 through 8 for monitoring.

For mixdown you could pull all the cables going to tape cause they wouldn't be needed anymore.

Unless I'm a moron, which is a possibility, that should work.

Right. This is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[RFR]

Only one way to find out. Unfortunately neither of us own that mixer to put it to the test.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

How about using a quarter inch splitter on the input or output of the compressor to feed the recorder? On the input gets signal without compression, on the output gets signal with compression. Use a 2-female to 1-male splitter at the compressor end of the insert cable and connect an instrument/patch cable from there to the recorder. I'd suggest a patch bay but for the space limitations.

 

[bachelorb]

Not really. For example, you want to insert a compressor; Click the plug in halfway to get the send signal > take that cable and plug into the input of the comp > run another cable from the output of the comp into the tape deck.

Then run a cable from the tape out jack of the deck to input (s) 5 through 8 for monitoring.

For mixdown you could pull all the cables going to tape cause they wouldn't be needed anymore.

So what you are saying is compression should take place during tracking and not the mixdown. Being a rank amateur at this (and I do mean rank since I've owned a compressor for 4 days now), that scares me a bunch. To me its easier to apply all the effects during mixdown, because I can do it in the comfort of the headphones. Right now, I'm a little afraid of compression during tracking because if I screw it up, its another take. Not a big deal usually, but I have to ask my wife to be quiet, turn off the air conditioner (in southern Arizona), and hope the dog and cat can keep from fighting for 2:52.......

Is there an advantage to compressing the track when recording rather than in the mix?

 

[famous beagle]

So what you are saying is compression should take place during tracking and not the mixdown. Being a rank amateur at this (and I do mean rank since I've owned a compressor for 4 days now), that scares me a bunch. To me its easier to apply all the effects during mixdown, because I can do it in the comfort of the headphones. Right now, I'm a little afraid of compression during tracking because if I screw it up, its another take. Not a big deal usually, but I have to ask my wife to be quiet, turn off the air conditioner (in southern Arizona), and hope the dog and cat can keep from fighting for 2:52.......

Is there an advantage to compressing the track when recording rather than in the mix?

There's no rule at all that says compression should happen during tracking. People compress on mixdown all the time --- in fact, it's probably even more common to compress on mixdown than it is while tracking because, as you said, you don't have to get it right while tracking.

But the thing is you only have one mono compressor right now. So you can only use it for one source at a time. You could use it for multiple sources, but it would be best if they were all very similar, such as several background vocals. If you try to compress a drum track and a guitar track at the same time, for example. two things will happen:

1. You probably won't get the desired result, because the drums are going to be triggering the compressor in a different way than the guitar is.

2. The outputted signal from the compressor will be mono, so the drums and guitar will not be able to be separated --- i.e., panned differently and/or have independent levels anymore.

If you had four compressors (or two stereo compressors with dual mono capability), you could wait until mixdown to compress everything. But with only one mono compressor, you can really only compress one track during mixdown. If you want compression on other tracks, you'd need to do it while tracking.

 

[famous beagle]

By the same token, since you only have one multi-effects processor (the Nanoverb), you can only use one effect setting on it while mixing down. So, if you're using it for reverb, for example, you can apply that reverb to all four tracks in varying amounts during mixdown. But if you also wanted delay on an electric guitar, for example, you won't be able to do that during mixdown because you'll be using the Nanoverb for reverb instead.

If you had a delay effect also --- and I think you said you actually have a guitar pedal delay --- then you could apply that to a single track on mixdown with the channel's insert.