Hey Sjoko, about those converters...

Henrik

Member
Hey Sjoko,
in several threads you have sworn by the quality of Lucid converters compared to anything on the market. I recall one post where you claimed the difference between something recorded through your Digi001 and the Lucids were like comparing cassette tape to CD! Probably intended as a mild exaggeration, but still you have really made me curious.

So if you at some point could spare a moment, I think I'm not the only one who would really like to hear an A/B comparison. Could you make a recording of for instance a drum loop or some vocals through both these converters and post them here? Of course, both dithered down to 16/44. It would just have to be like 5-10 second clips. That would be so interesting!

Thanks
/Henrik
 
Not really an exaggeration.

There are quite a few people here who have Lucid converters, you might be better off asking them, as I don't have access to an 001 or anything similar. I'm sure people like Cyan will have something like that readily available.
The only converters I have access to at the moment are Lucids and Stagetec, as I don't use anything else.

However, just consider that the Lucid's are the choice converters for Sonic Solution mastering systems ($20.000 plus), and the choice front end to replace digidesign's 888 converters ... then you will be able to ascertain that their quality is very much in a different league than 001's 'verters.
 
OH, I thought you said you had the 001, and that you used for making quick and dirty demos. That's why I asked you.

It's so rare (for me and most homerecording guys) to actually being able to A/B stuff and not just following people's recommendations. So if anybody has the opportunity to post a comparison like the one I suggested, I'd still be very interested.

Cheers
/Henrik
 
I did have one and sold it.
Don't forget as well that doing any comparisons with MP3's is a bit of a rough thing to do :)
 
A short clip (10 sec) could be posted in .wav...

I too would be very interested in hearing the difference! Could someone please do this???
 
Yeah, I wrote that the samples should be dithered down to 16/44.1, and I of course meant that I'd like to see them posted in that bit-/samplerate, in the .wav-format.

I emailed Cyan to make him aware of this thread - let's see if he has the time to spare for a thing like this.

If not - who else could do a comparison like this?

Cheers
/Henrik
 
I have some good news and some bad news.

When I did a test comparing the Lucid and the delta 1010(which a reviewer said had the best converters on an 8-in-8 out soundcard) using both boxes internal clocks, the Lucid won by a small margin. On a scale of 1-10 blindtest, people gave the lucid a 9 and the delta 1010 a 8 or 7. They claimed that the Lucid had more detail and more "realness". To me, and some others though , the difference was quite small , and not night and day.
This is the bad news.

Now, add a Lucid genx6, which is a $400 part, and we are talking some serious sound. Whenever I do a multi track song, I get a feeling of awe in my face because the combo of the Lucid genx6 with the Lucid ad9624 gives me pro sound in my bedroom for about $1150. THats the good news

I'll try and post a comparison here tonight or tomorrow.

I tested the clocks in the units, and most people thought the genx6 to be the realest clock, followed by the delta 1010 and then by the ad9624 clock. Before I got my genx6, I was using the delta clock instead of the lucid. MAybe its cos I am syncing with spdif out instead of true wordclock
 
Cyan,
thanks a lot for this input - I'm particularly happy about what you say since I'm a proud owner of a Delta 1010. I've never used its clock though, I've just used the internal clock of my Mac. But maybe a Genx6 should be my next buy.

One question about this test, though: What d/a was used?

Anyway, looking very much forward to hearing the sound clips!

/Henrik
 
for monitoring, I used the DAs on the delta 1010.
I am also very proud of the delta 1010, and trust me, the clip you are about to hear will make you prouder still.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/alternative/testerslogic
the file is

"MULTI TRACK COMPARISON OF THE CONVERTERS"

I recorded piano,(roland jv1010)
percussion(jv 1010)
and two vocal tracks,(shure sm58)

using both sets of converters. This time, I used the delta 1010 with its internal clock and the Lucid ad9624 with the genx6 to see EXACTLY how much difference $1100 makes.

One thing I did. I reversed the phase on the vocal mic by mistake so its reversed, BUT, it was reversed on all the takes, so it does not make a difference. My voice teacher also told me that today, for some reason, I was not engaging my support, so beware.

Anyhow


no eq or reverb though. I mangled the vocals by muting the beginning noise in soundforge. That and with the dithering to 16 bits means that I am virtually unable to ditinguish between the two at 320 kbps. You can hear more nuances on the .wav though.
 
I have the Aardvark Direct Pro card and I was wondering what you think would make the biggest improvement in sound, getting the Genx6 and clocking the Direct Pro or getting the Lucid A/D converter.

Thanx,
-tkr
 
hey tekker,

It all depends. I think that both boxes brought the same amount of improvement, but I think that the converters will make a bigger improvement.
 
I wrote a thread sometime ago about 'how to test converters". God knows where it is.

One thing to take into consideration, Cyan and others:

When you say the difference between something like a Delta1010 and a Lucid converter is marginal, I'd say it depends.
Pure logic dictates that, the better / higher quality your signal chain, the bigger the difference between converters becomes.
In other words, if you would put 2 such converters next to each other in a purpose designed, acoustically correct control room environment and A/B them, you would hear a BIG difference. Do the same test, but in a home environment, and the immediate audible difference will be less. (note: I said immediate audible - if you'd start stacking voices for instance the difference will be amplified, the more tracks, the bigger the difference).

The next, very obvious but often forgotten, difference / difficulty in A/B'ing 'verters is the D/A part. For example. I could track something through a $10.000 Stagetec A/D converter with over 150 dB dynamic range, and track the same thing through a Delta A/D.
Now listen to both, using the Delta D/A. The difference in sound will be marginal.
Now listen to the same 2 samples through the Stagetec's D/A - and the difference will blow your mind.
However, that difference will be in the recording. Just with one D?A you can hear it clearly, with the other one you cannot.

That is one of the reasons why I don't put such samples up. While I don't have an 001 at present, I have used them, tested them, as I have tested most other D/A's and A/D's. My test results are used by various people, but that is in pro environments, where I can demonstrate exactly what they will hear.

A very good result of the quality of conversion is experienced in mastering. I often get masters recorded / mixed in Pro Tools, using the generic Pro Tools clock and Digidesign 888 converters, fortunately less-and-less of them, as it severely jeopardizes the mastering process. Had such a session used something like Lucid converters and an external clock, a mastering engineer will have a substantially better dynamic range and extended frequency spectrum to work with, it makes the job easier and the results better.
Its a bit like 2 painters trying to get a smooth coat, one has a smooth oil based paint, the other a watery substance with some sand in it - no competition whatever they try.

Cyan is right about the clock. Less than 2 years ago sync clocks were between $2.000 and $5.000 - therefore used mainly by post production and mastering facilities. Now there are finally clocks designed purely for audio (as supposed to audio / video), and the 2 best clocks there are - period - for audio are the Ludid GEN6 and GEN6-96 clocks, on or around $500.
We are now how many years into digital audio?, and this is the first time clocks have come on the market that make a huge improvement in digital audio quality. This only because there are some critical design and engineering aspects involved in creating such a clock, the Lucid ones have been under development for a very long time.
A couple of facts:
- It is mechanically impossible to build an accurate clock in with any other gear (converter / card / DAW / recorder / etc). No exceptions, good 'build-in' or 'part-of' clocks do not excist.
- The same as the above goes for converters.

If you have any doubts about the above, consider that Yamaha just launched their new live console the all digital PM1D, which I think costs just over $100.000 They did a demo in Nashville, with Clare Brothers (for those who don't know, the largest PA hire corporation there is). Clare's engineers thought the whole thing sounded unacceptable and were "less than pleased" just a day or so before a huge show in which the new consoles were to be used. We shipped them a GEN6, which they used to clock the consoles from, and they sufddenly sounded great.
Same goes for every other piece of digital gear, doesn't matter if it costs 100 bucks or a million.
NEVER buy any digital gear unless it will accept an external clock source.

In conclusion, yes, an accurate clock will make a HUGE difference in the sound quality of ALL digital gear. For a "lower-end" system this will be the most audible, immediate improvement.
Converters also make a huge difference, how big a difference you can hear depends on the quality of your equipment, but never forget that by using a top converter you get quality to disk, regardless if you have the chain to hear it or not.

And finally, if you need any Lucid gear, ask me for a price first, as we should be able to get you the best prices. We sell a small number of pro gear brands, Lucid being the only item that's affordeable!
 
Sjoko2,

I think today is the first time that I actually heard the effects of simple processing on audio. Just doing a mute in soundforge reduced the difference a little bit. Converting to a 320kbps file brought sadness to my ears.

I have one question. When I open the individual vocal files in Soundforge, man can I hear a difference. THe lucid to me is more nuanced. But when I mixed everything up in Logic and bounced to disk, it became marginal. Is there something I am overlooking.
Is it the ultramaximizer that I had on the master bus, that messing things up? I set it to dither, type one, normal noise shaping, and then bounced to disk using logic bounce, set to 16 bits.
 
Very difficult to assess.

I presume that you clock everything right - of cause, and its all running off the GEN, properly terminated where it should be, so jitter cannot be the reason, unless you incur jitter in your CD burning process.

Perhaps the easiest way to find out is do a comparison without the Maximizer on?

Also, you recorded it at? 24/48?

(sorry - thinking while I type) - if you did record it at a higher rate, you might try and use Logic's dithering progam instead and see what that does.

Another thing it might be is the noise shaping (which, to be honest, sucks)
 
sjoko2 said:

And finally, if you need any Lucid gear, ask me for a price first, as we should be able to get you the best prices. We sell a small number of pro gear brands, Lucid being the only item that's affordeable!

Cool, who is 'we' BTW. Lucid sells to just about anyone and their brother.

Do you have an online site where I can check out your products? Price comparison, policies etc.

Thanks!
 
I recorded at 24/44.1 so as not to have to resample. I think that the noise shaping might be covering up some detail. I have actually heard it working before which is not a good thing.

I will also try without the maximaizer and see if there is any difference.
 
Emeric said:


Cool, who is 'we' BTW. Lucid sells to just about anyone and their brother.

Do you have an online site where I can check out your products? Price comparison, policies etc.

Thanks!

"we" is a company called NGS Productions LLC.

Lucid only sells through authorized distributors, definately not to "anyone and their brother" ;) apart from a limited number of assessoiries, which you can buy direct from their website, http://www.lucidaudio.com . NGS is an authorized Lucid distributor.

NGS only sells a very limited number of products, just items we totally believe in, and very often those are items with which we've had some kind of involvement, be it in the design, development or testing.
We don't have a website for sales, which might change in the future. With hardly any exceptions our sales are to established recording / mastering establishments only, so its all to word-of-mouth and to people we know, which is normal considering the majority of items we sell are hand-build, often purpose build, and very expensive, like the Forssell CS1, $2695 a single channel preamp, and Stayne mastering compressors for over $5000.

The only "normal" items we sell are the entire Lucid Range http://www.lucidaudio.com and THD Electronics products http://www.thdelectronics.com (this as their UniValve amp is fast becoming THE studio amp of choice, and their HotPlate is a must for every studio).

If you want a price on any item, just email me.
 
Did I screw up there or what?
Lucid does sell direct, started doing so through their website some weeks ago - at full recommended retail prices, so as not to upset the distributors. So - correction for the above :cool:
 
Sjoko, do you recomend that any unused output ports on a GenX6 be terminated (75ohm BNC)?
 
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