Help out a non-Guitar player with a tone question...

S

sr71rules

Member
How can I simulate the load of a guitar amp to fix the tone issue one of my guitar players is running into? He plays into a DI right now and we're all happy with his tone but when he tries to use a distortion pedal he is telling me the sound is nothing like what he hears through his amp. Now, obviously, the amp is adding it's own flavor and each amp will sound different but I think the real, or the core, issue is the resistance the amp adds to the signal that the DI and PA do not.

We have a very small space to work with and bringing and using an amp is an issue both because of size and volume. He would prefer not to have to lug it around as well. What can we do? People must have overcome this before...

I've heard a little bit about a device called a hotplate? The are not cheap though! Are their any inexpensive options? Is that something that will fix the issue? He is using an orange Boss Distortion pedal right now, is their a pedal that will do a better job on a PA?

Any guidance you can offer will be most welcome!

Robert
 
Your theory about resistance is WAAAAY off base. There is no way in hell that a crappy distortion pedal running direct will ever sound even remotely like an amp.[see my signature] What you need is some type of amp modeling unit like a V-amp or POD.
 
You are also probably putting it through a 15" and a 1" tweeter. It's just not going to do. There are a lot of small amps out there that are not much to "lug" around. If he won't do that, you'll have to just live with crappy tones.
 
Ya know, the modeller is what I thought of, pocket size will do. But there is an amp that has a good modeller built in, Vox AD15 or the newer VT15, small enough to carry with your pinky finger, and it has a lineout to go direct. The 8 inch speaker is nothing to brag about, but if you are handy at all you can mount a jack on it and plug it in to a big speaker cab when you rehearse, the models are awesome. VT30 is the smallest one I would consider, but if space is that tight just get a pocket modeller and go DI.

But ocnor is right, no way you will ever get decent sound just plugging a distortion pedal DI into a board, that is a total mismatch.
 
Interesting idea, using the pocket sized modeler. I suppose he'll want to be able to switch the tone on and off though with a pedal of some kind.. I'll have to see what I can find for small (inexpensive) modelers with a pedal switch jack. Criagslist here I come!

Thanks for the insights. As I said, I'm not a guitarist and really don't know too much about it. At least we have a place to start from now!

Robert
 
You can get a floor type pedal that is a modeller. He wouldn't want to switch the modeller on and off, just switch from a distortion lead model to a clean rhythm model, most of the modeller pedals have dozens if not hundreds of models to choose from, plus the ability to tweak and store several of your own tone recipes, all recallable by foot switch.
 
There are a bunch of amps out now with a "record out" option, some with a built in load so they don't need a speaker. The Egnater Rebel 30 for instance, great sounding tube amp with a silent record out., Your guitar player can get all the amp-tone he wants, and the line out will sound really good through your PA as well. Never AS good as a nice guitar speaker cab, but great for practice.

Daav
 
Seeing some really great ideas here I would never have thought of. The Sans Amp Character boxes are pretty inexpensive and might be at least worth a try! I'm not opposed to using something from Line6 or a V-Amp but the Sans Amp stuff looks more durable and simple.

Thanks Again!
 
If you're recording to a computer, your DAW (digital audio workstation) software may provide some amp modeling already, and/or you may be able to find some plugins that do modeling for free - you just need to be able to get a high quality signal in from the guitar - if you have a microphone preamp (or maybe an audio interface) that has an instrument input, that can be a good way to go. I've used the modeling plugin that comes with Apple's Logic Express for some things and been pretty happy with it, even with some pretty nice amps sitting idle in the room.
 
I use to get pretty good "non-amp" tones using my original Sans Amp and a Hughes & Kettner Redbox MkIII.

The output of the Sans Amp went into the Red Box Line In...and then the XLR balanced output went into a preamp (which also powered the Red Box with phantom power).

If I really had to go without using one of my tube amps...this is still the best sounding DI setup...IMHO.
I think it trumps most digital mods/sims, and the guitar reacts well to the combination....very tube amp like. :cool:
 
Man, I can NOT believe it- 10 responses, and...

Almost every one is about some sort of digital processing of the guitar signal- not ONE person (so far) who understands that you can not get TRUE or GOOD guitar distortion with a digital device. Let me say it (at least) ONE MORE TIME:

if you want guitar amp distortion, you gotta, gotta, GOTTA play through a TUBE guitar amp, INCLUDING it's cabinet and speaker. There are NO short-cuts- EVERYTHING will be disappointing- some more disappointing than others, but ALL disappointing.

And, no one addressed the "hotplate" question. Allow me:

THD Hotplates are their brand of ATTENUATORS. Attenuators are, for the point of explanation, like speakers that don't make any sound- they soak up some of the amplifier's output, and send the rest on to the "real" speaker. What you get is power-tube overdrive (WAY better sounding than pre-amp tube overdrive) with out ear-splitting volume levels. Here's basically how to use them: Plug one in between your amplifier and your speaker. Crank you tube guitar amp (they work the same on SS amps, but the sound is not nearly as pleasing) to about 8 or 10. Adjust the attenuator and the volume level on your amp to taste.

THD calls their attenuators "Hotplates." Marshall calls theirs "Power Brakes," somebody else calls it a "Power Soak." The first commercially-available guitar-amp attenuator was the Altair PW-5 Power Attenuator- I have one, and I love it.

Do NOT let ANYBODY tell you they ruin or damage your guitar amp's transformers or power tubes. They do NOT. What attenuators do is make the tubes (and the transformers, by extension) work harder, so tube live may be shortened, but you will get the same life out of a power tube (or set of 'em) by cranking the amp to 8 or 10 withOUT the attenuator.

So, if you want pleasing-sounding guitar distortion sound, you have two choices:

1. Experiment with all manner of fakes, wannabees, imitators, digital magic wands, snake-oil modeling amps, pre-amp distortion pedals, etc., until you finally stumble across an attenuator and find you use it, or;

2. Save yourself a LOT of trouble and lost-boy gear buying, and go out and buy an attenuator.
 
stevieb said:
Man, I can NOT believe it- 10 responses, and...

Almost every one is about some sort of digital processing of the guitar signal- not ONE person (so far) who understands that you can not get TRUE or GOOD guitar distortion with a digital device.
Click to expand...

The reason for those responses is because of the original post which it seems you have failed to read. Does this ring a bell?

sr71rules said:
We have a very small space to work with and bringing and using an amp is an issue both because of size and volume. He would prefer not to have to lug it around as well.
Click to expand...

The guy isn't going for the ultimate guitar tone, he just wants something usable for practice.
 
Yeah, I saw that- but perhaps you missed this...
sr71rules said:
...He plays into a DI right now and we're all happy with his tone but when he tries to use a distortion pedal he is telling me the sound is nothing like what he hears through his amp.
Click to expand...

which leads me to believe he is carting the amp there, already. If the one he uses is too big, I would simply suggest a smaller amp!

And, it sounds like he wants good tone when playing live, and the OP and his band mates are just not familiar with what goes into good electric guitar tone- they could do well with the lesson, even if they can't apply it in rehearsal. (Not ragging on you, OP- just something you have not learned, yet.)

And NOBODY addressed his question about attenuators, until I finally did- and I do mean "finally." I watched this thread for a full week, waiting for someone to step up. No one did.
 
stevieb said:
Yeah, I saw that- but perhaps you missed this...
which leads me to believe he is carting the amp there, already.
Click to expand...

No he was using a Boss DS-1 pedal straight into the P.A.
sr71rules said:
He is using an orange Boss Distortion pedal right now, is their a pedal that will do a better job on a PA?
Click to expand...


stevieb said:
And NOBODY addressed his question about attenuators, until I finally did- and I do mean "finally." I watched this thread for a full week, waiting for someone to step up. No one did.
Click to expand...

His question was whether the resistance from a Hotplate would make a Boss pedal sound like an amp.

sr71rules said:
How can I simulate the load of a guitar amp to fix the tone issue one of my guitar players is running into?
Click to expand...
sr71rules said:
but I think the real, or the core, issue is the resistance the amp adds to the signal that the DI and PA do not.
Click to expand...
sr71rules said:
I've heard a little bit about a device called a hotplate? The are not cheap though! Are their any inexpensive options? Is that something that will fix the issue?
Click to expand...

I addressed his question about attenuators right off the bat.
ocnor said:
Your theory about resistance is WAAAAY off base.There is no way in hell that a crappy distortion pedal running direct will ever sound even remotely like an amp.
Click to expand...
 
you need this, attached to a REAL tube amp.

pdi09-big.jpg


if you want to more, i can tell you all about it.
 
Gonzo, that box looks very interesting, I would like more info. Although I don't think it is a "real" attenuator- but I am still interested.

ocnor, I missed that you addressed the OP's attenuator question, maybe because you didn't mention "attenuator" in your post. I think we can agree that he won't get the tone he wants with the guitar>pedal>PA setup he currently is using. Really, it seems to me that you and I are very much on the same page.

EDIT: Gonzo, I found the Palmer website, and listened to their comparo of the Junction vs. a SM57
YouTube - Palmer PDI-09 Guitar Direct Box Demonstration
- sounded impressive, but then I listened to what I presume to be a less biased comparison between a SM57, a Seinnhauser E-609 and the Junction:
YouTube - Compare differents record modes
and I found the Junction to be rather thin and ice-pickish. This makes me think it's a good idea, but does not work as I was lead to believe it would by the company's website. Too bad, I was excited about it- I was ready to revise my opinion that nothing can take the place of a good tube amp/speaker/cab recorded with a mic. I am sorry to say, I still feel the same way I did.
 
Thanks for another great round of replies!

Allow me to clarify a small point: The guitar player does have an amp he just does not use it for practice and on Sunday mornings. He has it at home. When he uses the Boss pedal at home he hears a totally different tone than he hears through the PA. It's a church band and stage volume is a major issue, only trumped by space issues.

MiamiMike, that unit looks great. Thanks for the heads up!
 
stevieb

Here's what the junction sounds like in actual use.....

"The time, is magic."


all guitar parts (3) direct via the junction.


https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/mp3-mixing-clinic/time-magic-316192/



i don't think you should really trust a lot of that stuff you see on utoob

it's really hard, to differentiate between BS and BS


people talk about this kind of gear all the time, and most of the time it's bs.
i actually use this thing to record with.
i've got tons of examples if you're interested.


this clip features a 60 watt mesa boogie, attenuated with a weber mass lite, the junction is inbetween the output of the amp and the weber, so what you get via the junction is pure 100% amp output.
then i attenuate to use my cab as my own monitor. zero latency.

i can mic it, and mix that in with the junction signal as well.

the junction can be set to be very mellow sounding, or very bright.
you have to match the filter, with your rig, and the way you want the output to sound.
it's very basic, not a lot of choice, and nothing is variable.
but the fixed controls are precise, and do exactly what they're supposed to do.


personally, i think you wont be able to solve your guitarist's problem without getting into a more complicated rig.
nothing is going to sound like a real guitar rig, in my opinion, than a real guitar rig.

the closest he could get to having a tone that works both direct, in the headphones, out of a PA, and a monitor, without getting into an elaborate rig, would be something along the lines of a Line 6 Pod.....

you would have to have a monitor system for the pod, for working with live, that gives enough volume to play along with, and is accurate enough to let him dial in his 'FOH' sound to approximate a real rig.
 
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