External audio interface - scam, or necessity? (intel mac)

Yeah, but, all things being equal, Beta would likely have won had it not been for more studios jumping to VHS for their home distribution. "Software" was king and people could rent more films on VHS. Indeed, industry rumours are that it was the memories of Beta vs. VHS that caused Sony to get involved in content production and distribution.

Did you know that they didn't waste the cassette format though...they developed it into a professional version called Betacam (YUV component analogue recording) that became an industry standard--and the same size cassettes then became Digital Betacam which was the next industry standard until servers and memory sticks came along!

(As an aside...to this whole aside...the company I was working for bought some of those Philips 2000 machines and I had to lug one to Cyprus at one point to show some tapes to the local TV station when I was seconded there for six months in the late 1970s.)
 
I seem to pick the wrong horse when it comes to standards. I picked Beta when there were the "tape wars" and I picked HD-DVD during the video format wars (I do think Silverlight reused much of the code for HD-DVD).

I did end up using my Beta tape machine for an earlier music tape machine. It was easier to use than my reel to reel and had less noise (hiss). I got a couple of hours for a mix tape. Back when a mix tape required time and effort ;)
 
"Yeah, but, all things being equal, Beta would likely have won"

Well by that logic I would be driving a Merc instead of a Proton (which is fine BTW) because Mercs were as cheap!

I always thought the Betamax design came from the much bigger Umatic pro machine?

Was that the Big Ole 2000 you hefted? Feel for you if so! They made a much smaller version which was great but never going to win was it?

Philips got into VHS later but carried thru the Dynamic Track Following technique that had developed for 2k. Clever! The heads were mounted on peizo ceramic pads and the machines could play anything! When Disney released Fantasier it would not play on lots of VHS decks because they had mutilated the syncs to stop copying but that lil' old Charlie deck just tracked the bugger!

I still have a 60WPCh hi fi PA amp that uses a wrecked out "C" core mains traff from a 2000 with ILP modules.

Dave.
 
VHS won simply because of the way Sony licensed Beta verses Phillips and VHS. Sony wouldn't or they were high, not sure of the reason. But Phillips licensed VHS to everyone and their brother, prices dropped pretty fast, movie industry went with the volume and the rest as they say is history.

Now, very few have either ;)
 
VHS won simply because of the way Sony licensed Beta verses Phillips and VHS. Sony wouldn't or they were high, not sure of the reason. But Phillips licensed VHS to everyone and their brother, prices dropped pretty fast, movie industry went with the volume and the rest as they say is history.

Now, very few have either ;)

Whatever! Lots of politikin'. For instance, I read some time ago that minidisc was destined to go into cars but CD, which was far less suited got the gig somehow.

I still have a working VHS machine and I think you can still buy a DVD/VHS dubbing box?

Dave.
 
Whatever! Lots of politikin'. For instance, I read some time ago that minidisc was destined to go into cars but CD, which was far less suited got the gig somehow.

I still have a working VHS machine and I think you can still buy a DVD/VHS dubbing box?

Dave.

You can find them on eBay fairly easily.

---------- Update ----------

Or Argos, it seems:

Buy Toshiba RDXV60KB Freeview+ 320GB HD TV DVD and VCR Recorder at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for DVD players and recorders.
 
Go with your instinct and keep your cash for priority items that will make an immediate and blindingly obvious improvement. Music is an art form, not an exercise in technology for its own sake. The many devices available to capture /*process it come and go, and whichever one you have now will be obsolete and slagged off by all the technos in 10 years time. As you imply, there's probably dozens of ways in which you can improve your artistic performance, and most of them won't cost you any money at all. As Keith Richards said, just practice until your fingers bleed, and then some. And listen back to yourself critically, really listen. Beyond that, two or three hundred quid spent on a couple of low to mid-price half decent electret microphones (or whatever, just for example) is going to make a difference that even a cloth-eared fool will notice; whereas nobody in 'the real world' other than some of our 'golden ears' fraternity is going to give two hoots whether your iMac has a -120dB sound floor or a -60dB one; if it sounds artistically good, that's the only test that ultimately matters. Admittedly I'm not coming from the 'studio recording' angle, I'm a professionally qualified (City & Guilds) sound engineer working part time (semi-retired) and specialising in services to live music. In the last 18 years I must have done several hundred gigs for bands and nearly always I've had some kind of recorder running in the background. I don't have precious time to waste giving it any attention beyond plugging into the desk and setting levels, and mostly it's a waste of time, what with the vast number of ways in which 'live' can come out sounding pretty dire - phase issues, to name but one example. But just now and again, you'll happen to get all your ducks in a row and a great performer will put in a stunning take just when 'the machinery' is working tolerably well. And in total honesty, I might have used almost any media that happened to be to hand. Back along, that might have been nothing but a consumer-level cassette recorder, and having used many and various digital devices since then, a recent recording that the artist singled out for praise was actually done on a restored 1960 all-valve mono Ferrograph reel-to-reeler, which on paper would come out in the Stone Age as regards noise floor/ wow & flutter, etc! Finally, quit worrying about your iMac. That's pretty much all I've ever used to digitise my work; people love or hate it according to the music's merit and it sounds just fine to me, so I suppose some will conclude that I'm obviously deaf, but that's their problem, not mine. In summary, if Frank Sinatra had made a recording on a wax cylinder, people would still be marvelling at his voice and the orchestral arrangement in 50 years time, whereas a third-rate pub band recorded and produced by BBC sound guys (the best), using 'state of the art' technology is still gong to be in the trash bin and forgotten by tomorrow. And I hope that stirs things up, tee-hee!
 
Go with your instinct and keep your cash for priority items that will make an immediate and blindingly obvious improvement. Music is an art form, not an exercise in technology for its own sake. The many devices available to capture /*process it come and go, and whichever one you have now will be obsolete and slagged off by all the technos in 10 years time. As you imply, there's probably dozens of ways in which you can improve your artistic performance, and most of them won't cost you any money at all. As Keith Richards said, just practice until your fingers bleed, and then some. And listen back to yourself critically, really listen. Beyond that, two or three hundred quid spent on a couple of low to mid-price half decent electret microphones (or whatever, just for example) is going to make a difference that even a cloth-eared fool will notice; whereas nobody in 'the real world' other than some of our 'golden ears' fraternity is going to give two hoots whether your iMac has a -120dB sound floor or a -60dB one; if it sounds artistically good, that's the only test that ultimately matters. Admittedly I'm not coming from the 'studio recording' angle, I'm a professionally qualified (City & Guilds) sound engineer working part time (semi-retired) and specialising in services to live music. In the last 18 years I must have done several hundred gigs for bands and nearly always I've had some kind of recorder running in the background. I don't have precious time to waste giving it any attention beyond plugging into the desk and setting levels, and mostly it's a waste of time, what with the vast number of ways in which 'live' can come out sounding pretty dire - phase issues, to name but one example. But just now and again, you'll happen to get all your ducks in a row and a great performer will put in a stunning take just when 'the machinery' is working tolerably well. And in total honesty, I might have used almost any media that happened to be to hand. Back along, that might have been nothing but a consumer-level cassette recorder, and having used many and various digital devices since then, a recent recording that the artist singled out for praise was actually done on a restored 1960 all-valve mono Ferrograph reel-to-reeler, which on paper would come out in the Stone Age as regards noise floor/ wow & flutter, etc! Finally, quit worrying about your iMac. That's pretty much all I've ever used to digitise my work; people love or hate it according to the music's merit and it sounds just fine to me, so I suppose some will conclude that I'm obviously deaf, but that's their problem, not mine. In summary, if Frank Sinatra had made a recording on a wax cylinder, people would still be marvelling at his voice and the orchestral arrangement in 50 years time, whereas a third-rate pub band recorded and produced by BBC sound guys (the best), using 'state of the art' technology is still gong to be in the trash bin and forgotten by tomorrow. And I hope that stirs things up, tee-hee!

"Go with your instinct and keep your cash for priority items that will make an immediate and blindingly obvious improvement. Music is an art form, not an exercise in technology for its own sake. The many devices available to capture /*process it come and go, and whichever one you have now will be obsolete and slagged off by all the technos in 10 years time.

"As you imply, there's probably dozens of ways in which you can improve your artistic performance, and most of them won't cost you any money at all. As Keith Richards said, just practice until your fingers bleed, and then some. And listen back to yourself critically, really listen.

"Beyond that, two or three hundred quid spent on a couple of low to mid-price half decent electret microphones (or whatever, just for example) is going to make a difference that even a cloth-eared fool will notice; whereas nobody in 'the real world' other than some of our 'golden ears' fraternity is going to give two hoots whether your iMac has a -120dB sound floor or a -60dB one; if it sounds artistically good, that's the only test that ultimately matters.

"Admittedly I'm not coming from the 'studio recording' angle, I'm a professionally qualified (City & Guilds) sound engineer working part time (semi-retired) and specialising in services to live music. In the last 18 years I must have done several hundred gigs for bands and nearly always I've had some kind of recorder running in the background. I don't have precious time to waste giving it any attention beyond plugging into the desk and setting levels, and mostly it's a waste of time, what with the vast number of ways in which 'live' can come out sounding pretty dire - phase issues, to name but one example. But just now and again, you'll happen to get all your ducks in a row and a great performer will put in a stunning take just when 'the machinery' is working tolerably well.

"And in total honesty, I might have used almost any media that happened to be to hand. Back along, that might have been nothing but a consumer-level cassette recorder, and having used many and various digital devices since then, a recent recording that the artist singled out for praise was actually done on a restored 1960 all-valve mono Ferrograph reel-to-reeler, which on paper would come out in the Stone Age as regards noise floor/ wow & flutter, etc!

"Finally, quit worrying about your iMac. That's pretty much all I've ever used to digitise my work; people love or hate it according to the music's merit and it sounds just fine to me, so I suppose some will conclude that I'm obviously deaf, but that's their problem, not mine.

"In summary, if Frank Sinatra had made a recording on a wax cylinder, people would still be marvelling at his voice and the orchestral arrangement in 50 years time, whereas a third-rate pub band recorded and produced by BBC sound guys (the best), using 'state of the art' technology is still gong to be in the trash bin and forgotten by tomorrow. And I hope that stirs things up, tee-hee!"

I thought I would space it out a bit in paragraphs so that it is easier to read.
 
Thanks Duncan & welcome to the forum.

Your thoughts are on target.

I'm not worried over my mac, and though I learned of the relative merit of the external AI's, I do need to invest in better sound control between my instruments and my mics, and in better playing style. I have a rumbling, mumbling play style that needs to move more toward hitting predictable strum patterns.

It is about being an excellent player first, and then getting excellent recordings of that work. Learning more all of the time. If I went back to work full-time, I could afford the foam thingies, baffles that help to control sound in the record environment - but then, I would not have any time or energy to create and play, I wouldn't be able to make open mics... So I am trying to learn what I can, make do with what I have and use the new understandings that I gain in this forum to move in a makeshift way, closer and closer to the goal.

It will be awhile before ordering the 100 splash-painted CD's to home master to, and give away or sell cheaply at open mics. It will happen eventually, and hopefully before I'm too old to appeal to the ladies... :)
 
""In summary, if Frank Sinatra had made a recording on a wax cylinder, people would still be marvelling at his voice and the orchestral arrangement in 50 years time,"

Except that you couldn't DO Sinatra and May onto wax cylinder! The technology wasn't up to it. In any case, tho Frank was great he was essentially a crooner and without a mic he would have been stuffed!

"Art" and technology go hand in hand, always have.

Dave.
 
ECC83...and I entirely agree with your comment too. As is (I hope) obvious, I was making a point using absurd extremes. Yes, it's best to have the best kit you can afford, we can argue for ever about what that might be, and if I could afford to buy better, this forum would one of the the first places I'd go to learn from others who've already invested in higher-end gear. But a great song played well is still going to shine, even on today's relatively affordable budget equipment. And as others on the forum have implied, there's a whole load of black arts such as getting good mic placement, making the best of indifferent room acoustics and using optimum levels to drive down s/n ratio, etc. Those things are more about quite elementary but solid technical know-how coupled with trial and error experience, and will immediately produce audibly better results before you even have to stick your hand very far into your pocket. Again, I guess most of you guys out there like to work in as near as you can get to a studio environment, whereas my work with live music doesn't exactly translate to that, so I'm not going to preach beyond the area I'm familiar with. But to quote one example of an inexpensive measure that we stumbled across that wins again and again was when we spent a hundred quid or so on lots of really heavy stage cloth from Thomann, which we put behind the band whenever we can (if we can find some way to hold it up!). FOH sound is cleaner and less 'muddled' and stage monitor sound instantly improves 100%, the musicians love it because they can suddenly hear themselves properly, not the walls, and consequently they can give their best. A similar trick is to isolate the band's amps / monitors from a hollow wooden floor or stage using slabs of flight case foam or similar, and hey presto, no booming resonances, cleaner sound. Works a treat in countless village halls and the like, which were never built to cope with loud electric music. Just one little rackmount techno device that we DID invest in was an Aphex Aural Exciter with optical bass compression, not very expensive, and once you've 'tuned' the thing, bringing it into circuit is as good as a magic button that says 'better'.
 
ECC83...and I entirely agree with your comment too. As is (I hope) obvious, I was making a point using absurd extremes. Yes, it's best to have the best kit you can afford, we can argue for ever about what that might be, and if I could afford to buy better, this forum would one of the the first places I'd go to learn from others who've already invested in higher-end gear. But a great song played well is still going to shine, even on today's relatively affordable budget equipment. And as others on the forum have implied, there's a whole load of black arts such as getting good mic placement, making the best of indifferent room acoustics and using optimum levels to drive down s/n ratio, etc. Those things are more about quite elementary but solid technical know-how coupled with trial and error experience, and will immediately produce audibly better results before you even have to stick your hand very far into your pocket. Again, I guess most of you guys out there like to work in as near as you can get to a studio environment, whereas my work with live music doesn't exactly translate to that, so I'm not going to preach beyond the area I'm familiar with. But to quote one example of an inexpensive measure that we stumbled across that wins again and again was when we spent a hundred quid or so on lots of really heavy stage cloth from Thomann, which we put behind the band whenever we can (if we can find some way to hold it up!). FOH sound is cleaner and less 'muddled' and stage monitor sound instantly improves 100%, the musicians love it because they can suddenly hear themselves properly, not the walls, and consequently they can give their best. A similar trick is to isolate the band's amps / monitors from a hollow wooden floor or stage using slabs of flight case foam or similar, and hey presto, no booming resonances, cleaner sound. Works a treat in countless village halls and the like, which were never built to cope with loud electric music. Just one little rackmount techno device that we DID invest in was an Aphex Aural Exciter with optical bass compression, not very expensive, and once you've 'tuned' the thing, bringing it into circuit is as good as a magic button that says 'better'.

Can you say...."line break"...? :D

When you get to the end of a sentence and type the period...then hit [ENTER]...twice is even better. ;)

How it could be:

ECC83...and I entirely agree with your comment too. As is (I hope) obvious, I was making a point using absurd extremes. Yes, it's best to have the best kit you can afford, we can argue for ever about what that might be, and if I could afford to buy better, this forum would one of the the first places I'd go to learn from others who've already invested in higher-end gear.

But a great song played well is still going to shine, even on today's relatively affordable budget equipment. And as others on the forum have implied, there's a whole load of black arts such as getting good mic placement, making the best of indifferent room acoustics and using optimum levels to drive down s/n ratio, etc. Those things are more about quite elementary but solid technical know-how coupled with trial and error experience, and will immediately produce audibly better results before you even have to stick your hand very far into your pocket.

Again, I guess most of you guys out there like to work in as near as you can get to a studio environment, whereas my work with live music doesn't exactly translate to that, so I'm not going to preach beyond the area I'm familiar with. But to quote one example of an inexpensive measure that we stumbled across that wins again and again was when we spent a hundred quid or so on lots of really heavy stage cloth from Thomann, which we put behind the band whenever we can (if we can find some way to hold it up!).

FOH sound is cleaner and less 'muddled' and stage monitor sound instantly improves 100%, the musicians love it because they can suddenly hear themselves properly, not the walls, and consequently they can give their best. A similar trick is to isolate the band's amps / monitors from a hollow wooden floor or stage using slabs of flight case foam or similar, and hey presto, no booming resonances, cleaner sound. Works a treat in countless village halls and the like, which were never built to cope with loud electric music.

Just one little rackmount techno device that we DID invest in was an Aphex Aural Exciter with optical bass compression, not very expensive, and once you've 'tuned' the thing, bringing it into circuit is as good as a magic button that says 'better'.
 
i just did a whole heap of thread sculpting here. There wasn't anything particularly disturbing about the posts. It was just that they were way off topic.
 
i just did a whole heap of thread sculpting here. There wasn't anything particularly disturbing about the posts. It was just that they were way off topic.
Good move. I'll take responsibility for that one. It actually started with me posting in what I thought was another thread.
 
Not a scam. But it really depends on what you need. Maybe you don't need anymore functionality than what the Mac internal provides so then your fine.

But there's many instances that need the functionality of a more robust external sound card. Many people need multiple inputs to track multiple instruments at once and mix after recording.

Also, on Windows, latency is really horrible with internal sound cards, say for instance input monitoring or playing soft synths realtime. On a Mac this doesn't seem to be an issue with the internal sound card.

But mixing in the box, I don't believe your sound card really has anything to do with sound quality of the final mix.
 
Not a scam. But it really depends on what you need. Maybe you don't need anymore functionality than what the Mac internal provides so then your fine.

But there's many instances that need the functionality of a more robust external sound card. Many people need multiple inputs to track multiple instruments at once and mix after recording.

Also, on Windows, latency is really horrible with internal sound cards, say for instance input monitoring or playing soft synths realtime. On a Mac this doesn't seem to be an issue with the internal sound card.

But mixing in the box, I don't believe your sound card really has anything to do with sound quality of the final mix.

Yep, well put, thanks for your input. They are not scam, nor are they necessity - if one is already working with 24 bit hardware, then the importance of external interfaces becomes relative to everything else in the process. If one's internal sound card is 16 bit, then the difference becomes overwhelming & at that point the external 24 bit interface might make a big difference.

What I've learned here is to review everything from the brain forward through the instrument and signal chain to the DAW, and then through that, with a realistic assessment of where these elements are at and where improvement is necessary/possible. My question was part of that process. In doing so I've found that I need work in the earlier parts of the process - brain, brain to instrument, and then instrument to mic and vox to mic. So it's the mechanics and timing of playing, then correcting the issues happening 'in air' between my gear and the mics.

I have found a few ways to affect minor improvement. Exercising before playing, seems to improve the playing. Getting to a mental place where I'm not fretting over things that I can't change at the given moment, helps. Putting crude insulation batts around the vox mic to lessen reflection in my small record space, has made something of a difference. Changing strings would probably help.

Hoping to bring in 3 inputs for guitar, that's 2 mics plus a line out, plus a mic or two on vox simultaneously and I will look to an external interface for that. The K 6 looks good. For now though it is still about getting the right stuff from brain to body & then on to the instrument and vocal with accuracy. If I can't get there solo in the next few months I'll try going back to collaboration, work with others to help fill out the mix.
 
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