Drum Mic Bleed

whirlwindRA

whirlwindRA

Member
Whenever I try to record drums, I can essentially hear the entire kit through the snare mic, and somewhat the tom mics. This makes compression near impossible because it ends up making the background noise just as loud as the snare. Do I need to turn down the mic gain, or is it not really a problem that I can't use compression?
 
turning down the gain a little and mic position are the main factors in cutting down on bleed. You can solve a lot of it with just adjusting where on the rim the mic is positioned. Just experiment with different mic positions.

And it is near impossible to cut out all bleed. The idea is to just make the back ground a lot less prominent than what your micing. Also remember your trying to get the drums to sound like 1 full instrument, just compressing the snare or bass drum is not the way to go about it. Instead, first and foremost group all your drum tracks together, then add a little compression to the drum group, then go back and add compression to the individual tracks as you see fit. And if something gets drowned out, compress the group just slightly more or pull back the compression on the individual track. Layering compression is a much better idea than just smashing individual tracks until they are all disproportional to each other.
 
Hey. Why don't you gate the snare, kick and tom tracks? Or cut everything out except the hits? You don't have to live with the bleed.
 
You can make cardboard buffers by cutting out an 8" by 8" piece of cardboard and poking the mic through. This seriously will reduce bleed
 
Gain/record level, has virtually zilch to do with your relative amount of bleed.
That would be their relative -close vs far- loudness, mic placement, mic rejection pattern.
There is one exception, maybe if you're gain is so hot that it clips the snare hits, then yes pulling the whole thing down allows those peaks to extend farther above that other stuff, thus more dynamic range.. 'signal' vs bleed.

The good news is (along with mic placement) if you can hit the drum of interest solidly you get to turn the whole down.. and be left with less bleed, more room to compress.
 
Track Rat said:
Embrace the bleed..
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Hey! That's my line!!!! :D

But seriously, you're always going to get some bleed, it's part of drum recording. You can try to position your mics so that you get as little bleed as possible, but it can't be totally avoided.

You can try gating, but I've never found a need., and gating the snare will have you pulling your hair out when it comes time to mix, especially if you play ghost strokes on the snare.

Turning a mic down accomplishes nothing as far as bleed is concerned. It will turn the WHOLE signal down, so everything stays relative.
 
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RAMI said:
Turning a mic down accomplishes nothing as far as bleed is concerned. It will turn the WHOLE signal down, so everything stays relative.
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I've definitely experimented with this. I had one of my teachers say something along the lines of when you think about a gain knob, substitute sensitivity. This may apply a lot more to live sound than recording but I've definitely played with similar results for recording drums.

We have all seen a mic pattern, whether it be a type of cardioid, omni, 8, what ever. Pic if you haven't. Imagine when the gain setting is off, there is no pattern, because essentially you can't hear that signal. If you turned the gain up 3db you would then have a small pattern (no where near the size pictured), and then if you turned it up again, it would slightly larger, until you reached a gain level that would be picking up a lot more and would more sensitive to environment around it.

In live sound, this applies a lot to vocal mics. Where you have to worry about feed back and amplifying anything else on stage level and was a technique we were told if we were ever in a situation if we found ourselves without an EQ to combat feedback. So you set a very low gain level, so your "bubble" of a pattern is really small so you have to sing right up on the mic for it to be able to pick up any sound. Of course you can't leave it like this because the overall signal will be far to low in the mix with the rest of the instruments. So what you do is later down the chain, use a compressor or something with an output/makeup gain capability and simply increase the make up gain to a suitable level. This allows for the mic to stay at a level where it won't feedback and pick up anything else on stage, but the level is amplified down the chain to a level that will be able to be used.

Same sort of applies to recording drums. Your close micing your drums right, so you can apply the same concept. Have a low gain setting, so the mic is only picking up the majority of the snare sound. You can then later down the signal chain amplify the signal again to something usable, and low and behold, you'll have very very minimal bleed in that signal.

Just experiment with the idea, it can definitely help.
 
You know I'm not an engineer, don't call myself one. But this is full of wholes in some really basic stuff.
Capt Hair said:
I've definitely experimented with this. I had one of my teachers say something along the lines of when you think about a gain knob, substitute sensitivity. This may apply a lot more to live sound than recording but I've definitely played with similar results for recording drums.
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Live-studio, shall we agree, same basics?

Imagine when the gain setting is off, there is no pattern, because essentially you can't hear that signal.
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With gain, with no gain, same air vibrations moving the diaphragm.

Think about that. The diaphragm's vibration, the voltage at the mic's output does not go away because you're not there to turn a gain knob.

If you turned the gain up 3db you would then have a small pattern (no where near the size pictured), and then if you turned it up again, it would slightly larger, until you reached a gain level that would be picking up a lot more and would more sensitive to environment around it.
In live sound, this applies a lot to vocal mics. Where you have to worry about feed back and amplifying anything else on stage level and was a technique we were told if we were ever in a situation if we found ourselves without an EQ to combat feedback. So you set a very low gain level, so your "bubble" of a pattern is really small so you have to sing right up on the mic for it to be able to pick up any sound. Of course you can't leave it like this because the overall signal will be far to low in the mix with the rest of the instruments. So what you do is later down the chain, use a compressor or something with an output/makeup gain capability and simply increase the make up gain to a suitable level. This allows for the mic to stay at a level where it won't feedback and pick up anything else on stage, but the level is amplified down the chain to a level that will be able to be used. ..
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The size of that polar pattern is a expression of relative sensitivity to spl at various frequencies and directions- Not distance.

Your logic would have the mic/diaphragm knowing that some lower SPL was due to distance (farther away stuff we don't like) vs closer...but simply quieter.
Then the mic (or the whole system if you like) acts differently if we cut voltage at one spot, but trick it by making up for it a stage or two down the line?

Sensitivity of a mic is expressed as a constant for it's output voltage at a ref SPL, frequency, direction if you like.
Even proximity effect which is a distance factor doesn't know or care gain, applied now or later.
 
You Could..

Put a styrofoam cup filled with acoustic foam around the mic,

Gate the snare,

Cut out the snare,

Use the Snare to trigger samples,

Use tight multiband compression

Record the Snare as a separate solo Track
 
If the difference between the intended source and an unintended source is, for example, 6dB it will always be 6dB regardless of gain.
 
Like the Stones said: Let it bleed.

Or you could record each individual drum piece one at a time! I'd love to see that - I bet a good drummer would have trouble playing only the left rack tom on the first take, then the kick only on the next take ... but there would be no bleed!
 
Capt Hair said:
Imagine when the gain setting is off, there is no pattern, because essentially you can't hear that signal. If you turned the gain up 3db you would then have a small pattern (no where near the size pictured), and then if you turned it up again, it would slightly larger, until you reached a gain level that would be picking up a lot more and would more sensitive to environment around it.
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Not to start one off, but who's right here? Capt or Rami?

I'm inclined to think what you're saying is right, but the relationship between bleed and the source is always going to be the same.
So, if you turn the gain down, record, then boost the signal later, you end up with the same thing, don't you?
 
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