jimmys69
MOODerator
Hells yeah! 3.5 miles away from me! I'm gonna go get me some cobbler sub action from Jersey Mike!
Does analog move more air. . . ?
- Thread starter AtoDeficient
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Hells yeah! 3.5 miles away from me! I'm gonna go get me some cobbler sub action from Jersey Mike!
CrowsofFritz
Flamingo!
mshilarious
Banned
I have never had a great sub nor great pizza 
I've had the greatest peanut soup with morel mushrooms though. I think I might kill for another bowl of that soup.
I've had the greatest peanut soup with morel mushrooms though. I think I might kill for another bowl of that soup.
Victory Pete
Banned
On a molecular level, All matter's atoms also move unless they are at "Absolute Zero".
VP
mshilarious
Banned
You know, I ain't that good at physics (got a C); I am bad at conserving terms, so I need some help:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ComparativeRepresentationOfSoundFieldQuantities.pdf
So if a 1kHz 1Pa wave has a 385um particle displacement (almost half a mm, certainly larger than a molecule!), then how far should my ~100Hz 10Pa (114dBSPL) tom hit have displaced particles?
Given:
particle displacement = Pa / (Z0 * 2 * pi * f) (see wikipedia if you missed that earlier)
If I increase Pa by a factor of 10, and reduce f by a factor of 10, then my solution must be 100 times larger than a 1kHz 1Pa wave. Do you agree?
If so, that means the particle displacement was . . . drumroll . . .
.000385m * 100 = 0.0385m = 38.5mm, or about 1.5"!
Which is not too far off of what I observed with the candle (estimated at an inch).
Science kicks *ass* once again!
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Science is teh pwn .......... unless you're a conservative .......Science kicks *ass* once again!
Victory Pete
Banned
You know, I ain't that good at physics (got a C); I am bad at conserving terms, so I need some help:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ComparativeRepresentationOfSoundFieldQuantities.pdf
So if a 1kHz 1Pa wave has a 385um particle displacement (almost half a mm, certainly larger than a molecule!), then how far should my ~100Hz 10Pa (114dBSPL) tom hit have displaced particles?
Given:
particle displacement = Pa / (Z0 * 2 * pi * f) (see wikipedia if you missed that earlier)
If I increase Pa by a factor of 10, and reduce f by a factor of 10, then my solution must be 100 times larger than a 1kHz 1Pa wave. Do you agree?
If so, that means the particle displacement was . . . drumroll . . .
.000385m * 100 = 0.0385m = 38.5mm, or about 1.5"!
Which is not too far off of what I observed with the candle (estimated at an inch).
Science kicks *ass* once again!
Obviously at a sound source such as a drum, speaker or other large moving diaphragm, there will be considerable "Molecular Motion".
VP
BTW, I forgot to add "Pretentious" as one of your personality traits.
famous beagle
Well-known member
I read the first 15 pages or so of this thread (and I didn't even intend on doing that---I was just intrigued as to how a thread got over 500 replies in 3 weeks), so forgive me if I've missed any revelations after that.
But I just have to say, I am amazed that this A vs. D war still rages so ridiculously. It's like politics, but it's even more ridiculous than that because you're not really affected at all by the choice of others. If you hate democrats or republicans, it's still silly to argue, because you're never going to change anyone's mind, but at least there is a bit at stake. The party that's in power can have an effect on your daily life.
But this is home recording, and people get enraged at other people's claims that analog or digital sounds better. Not only are you never going to change someone's mind, but it doesn't matter in the least!
Analog has already been wiped out of the mainstream, and those of us that like it have to find ways to keep using it .... in our home studio, which will have no bearing on what Mr. Digital wants to do in his.
If you don't like analog, don't use it!
If you don't like digital, don't use it!
Why can't it be as simple as that?
But I just have to say, I am amazed that this A vs. D war still rages so ridiculously. It's like politics, but it's even more ridiculous than that because you're not really affected at all by the choice of others. If you hate democrats or republicans, it's still silly to argue, because you're never going to change anyone's mind, but at least there is a bit at stake. The party that's in power can have an effect on your daily life.
But this is home recording, and people get enraged at other people's claims that analog or digital sounds better. Not only are you never going to change someone's mind, but it doesn't matter in the least!
Analog has already been wiped out of the mainstream, and those of us that like it have to find ways to keep using it .... in our home studio, which will have no bearing on what Mr. Digital wants to do in his.
If you don't like analog, don't use it!
If you don't like digital, don't use it!
Why can't it be as simple as that?
AtoDeficient
New member
I wish I knew. . . I just had a simple curiousity, then I resumed my daily routine. . .
There are guys on here that have preoccupied their last few weeks with this, and I suppose it has kept them from being bored, and allowed them to vent unconnected frustrations. . .
I just wish I'd never posted in the first place, as there were so many pepole that seemed to read all kinds of intentions into my harmless uneducated question, but what can you do. . .
I'm gonna go work on my car, and check the mail, and sit on the deck with my cat, as it is a beautiful spring day here, and I need a breath of fresh air. . .
mshilarious
Banned
Could you define for us the VP Law of when sound traveling through air moves air at a scale greater than molecular size and when it doesn't?
Note the molecular size of N2, a quick Google turned up this:
Helium and Nitrogen Sizes
Using the largest measure of N2 given as 521pm, that is:
0.000000000521m
vs. the particle velocity of a 1kHz wave at 1Pa (94dBSPL, not too loud), 385um:
0.000385m
So that motion is ~739,000 times larger than molecular size.
mshilarious
Banned
Because this thread wasn't originally about which sounded better, it was about air motion. VP said early on and often that sound doesn't move air. But it does. Only once we establish that as a scientific fact can be proceed to answer the question of which recording medium will move more air on playback.
famous beagle
Well-known member
I guess that was a short breath of fresh Spring air....
So like....do we want this thread to rage on, or is it time to bring it to a close, as I don't see any new ground being broken...?
Sorry! I didn't see the OP's last post about wanting fresh air when I posted mine. That was just a coincidence. Believe me, I'm not wanting to rev up the A/D war in any way! I just think we should all enjoy making and recording our music however we'd like to do it.
I guess that was a short breath of fresh Spring air....
So like....do we want this thread to rage on, or is it time to bring it to a close, as I don't see any new ground being broken...?
It can go away. There was a smattering of interesting information sprinkled in with the petty bickering, egotistical postering and good old fashion trolling. The one thing this thread did for me was to lower my opinion of a couple of posters. Like that matters.
This debate isnt going away, or anywhere.
Fact: there are people who prefer the sound of analog over digital for whatever reason.
Fact: there are people who can differenciate between the two in blind tests.
Fact: there remain high end studios that maintain and offer full analog rooms using tape and vintage outboard gear. They have clients willing to pay a premium for the use of this technology. I seriously doubt they do it to add "analog distortion".
Theory: like eyesight, individuals hearing is different from each other. Maybe even moreso than with eyesight as the differences in the physical structures of each individuals hear would have an effect on how they "hear" things. Is it possible that have more sensitivities in their hearing can diiferenciate between the two? And the opposite, those that cannot differenciate, cannot understand what they cannot hear. If you cannot tell the difference then digital would get the nod, cheaper, readily available current technology, less maintenance, no problem with dicey media.
Just my theory.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^
People definitely can have VERY different levels of perception or actual hearing. Hell .... the same person can hear and/or perceive differently from day to day ........... there's no question of that.
As for the other stuff .............. I still think it's silly to get worked up or outraged if a thread goes it's own way.
No one was hurt or harmed in any way ....... and the bickering in this thread was extremely minor and of no consequence.
It didn't even get particularly insulting.
When there's a thread where people are running around threatening to track down and kill each other ( it happens believe it or not), then that's something to put a stop to. Otherwise a thread is simply a conversation and they go where they will.
And to the newbs with few posts who want to try to be all righteous about even the slightest deviation from On Topic .... 1. That's just how things work here and 2. if they note the guys that have been here for a decade or more ...... there's a reason those guys are still around and it's not because they're troublemakers.
So if they give someone a hard time there could very well be a legitimate reason for that.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
and so was I nor was I specifically targeting you other than to agree with your comments concerning hearing.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Do you have any links or documentation to support this? I'm not calling you a liar or anything; I'd just be fascinated to see someone actually be able to do this, because I'm almost positive I would never be able to tell.
mshilarious
Banned
That is going to depend on source material and production methods in addition to listener experience and ability. Given the observed qualities of both media it would be possible to construct a test that was either easy or difficult to distinguish.
Note that in Ty Ford's test the engineers were ultimately able to distinguish based upon the LF peak due to head bump. That is another way of asking if an engineer can hear an EQ change of 1dB or more at a given frequency.
Another method of constructing that test would be to EQ the tape response. Then you'd have to go looking for something else, like modulation products from flutter or THD, or dynamic range (noise), or maybe that mystical ultrasound (if using single-speed digital).
There have been interesting tests done on audibility of various distortion products; that does vary in my experience based upon source material and listener. I had a product with selectable output transformers that were intended to saturate easily, early and often. I had one customer who could not hear the difference--about 1% THD, almost all third with a little fifth, at 0VU/100Hz. I think that is fairly obvious to hear, but he did not . . .
It's very easy to measure, anyway.
mshilarious
Banned
I have been threatened with death and/or beatings a couple of times before. I am not real surprised.
It's because all of the people who come to kill me fail. Not because I am a he-man martial artist or anything, but they all make the mistake of not simply coming up to my door and shooting me, or sniping me from across the street or something. No, they all have to play ninja and try to sneak through the yard under cover of darkness . . .
. . . and my lawn is heavily mined
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