Do room reflections come only from a localized source?

If two waves come at each other...your saying they will just pass through each other without any affect on each other...?

Not sure about that.
I guess we have to discern what type of effect we are talking about.
They might not completely reflect/repel each other...but there is a mass and pressure/force there...so they must have some effect?

What about low and high air preassure masses...they sure DO interact with each other...they don't just pass through each other as though neither is there.

Not sure if we are looking this from the same perspective........?


Yes, absolutely they will pass through each other with no affect or influence one on the other.

Back to my ocean analogy. If you have two waves going right towards each other, say the wave heights of both are 5 ft. They will meet somewhere and where they do will see a crest of 10ft, but the waves themselves keep going and they will be 5 ft again, unchanged.

Waves are energy, not mass. Sound, light, ocean, etc... There is pressure and force, but that's energy too, not mass.
 
miroslav, the room won't crumble so long as the material that makes it up is strong enough to handle the air pressure. We're not talking about a lot, just enough to produce a measurable amplitude of a wave. Think about liquid hydrogen. That stuff is under a lot of pressure, but somehow metal containers can handle it.

I'm not sure just what type of physical size requirements and changes would be required to cause the air pressure to modulate that rapidly, if at all. I'm not an expert on Boyle's Law (I think that's the one), but I'm not sure how quickly the pressure change in the room would propagate through the volume even if the walls moved instantaneously.

Glen, I think that this is the key to why this theoretical question is hard to grasp practically. Because changes in pressure don't travel through air instantaneously, then resonance from the walls will reflect around like ripples in a pond. But, if you can get that whole volume of air expanding and contracting - the whole volume - then there aren't any waves, there is just an oscillation of air pressure. As I said in my last post, I don't think this would register on a ribbon mic, or even an ear drum. Would it? That's a tough question.

Then you have the complication of wave cancellations and moding. If one wall moved, that would be one thing, but with all 6 surfaces moving simultaneously, you'd have waves propagating in every direction, and that's even before they reflect. I'd expect there to be a lot of phase complications going on that would effect the results.

This is why I quickly abandoned a six-walled room for a spherical room. In the sphere, all phase and moding problems would occur at a single point in the middle of the room. if you had a singular "hearing" element, then you might avoid the phasing issues. I don't know.
 
OK...but is not the 10ft crest an effect of the two waves coming together?
If they just passed through...with no interaction...there would be no crest.

I'll pick up in the morning...must get some zzzzzzzzz
 
miroslav, the room won't crumble so long as the material that makes it up is strong enough to handle the air pressure. We're not talking about a lot, just enough to produce a measurable amplitude of a wave. Think about liquid hydrogen. That stuff is under a lot of pressure, but somehow metal containers can handle it.

You're talking about two different things.

Changing pressure inside a container is one thing, there is NO change in volume...expanding or contracting the airtight container is a different thing and would be an attempt to chnage the volume....but if it's airtight, that can't happend without the container bursting and allowing the change....and then it's no longer airtight.
 
OK...but is not the 10ft crest and effect of the two waves coming toghter?
If they just passed through...with no interaction...there would be no crest.

I'll pick up in the morning...must get some zzzzzzzzz


They're just cresting on top of one another. You get a sum of their energies. If one 5-footer was at it's trough, and the other 5-footer was at it's peak, you'd get a point of calm ocean.
 
I think this has a bearing on mixing and recording. If you have a true mono signal, and someone listens with in-ear headphones, you're experiencing almost no reflections. Since we as humans are always surrounded by sound reflections, our perception of a completely dry sound wave is affected.

I think I'm going to go out and get a matched pair of mics. For everything. :D
 
The ball floating on the ocean will still bob, but there won't be any waves going to wherever they're heading. No waves = no chance for reflection.

But now that I think about it, if you were in a room and the whole room's air pressure changed, it might not produce any sound. A ribbon mic wouldn't pick that up, would it? The pressure on both sides of the ribbon would always be the same. The same would be true of a mic diaphragm, or an eardrum (I think).

So we must perceive sound as a change in air pressure, or a distortion in air pressure, relative to a baseline. It's a matter of waves, not overall air pressure.

Okay, whew, you're all over the place here... :o and I'm not sure I'm completely following.

Following your wave analogy, what if the whole surface of the ocean is moving at once up and down. No waves = no chance for reflection.

If the whole ocean moved up and down.... well, there would have to be a wave because it's a cyclic thing; first up, then down. There are wave reflections in the ocean, but I'm not sure if this analogy can continue to fit your theoretical model, or if it does, I'm not sure how to make it fit. sorry.

But now that I think about it, if you were in a room and the whole room's air pressure changed, it might not produce any sound. A ribbon mic wouldn't pick that up, would it? The pressure on both sides of the ribbon would always be the same. The same would be true of a mic diaphragm, or an eardrum (I think).

A ribbon mic might not, but an omni mic would. And as Glen said, sound is any oscillation that the ear can hear. And btw: the ear can equalizes across pressure differentials. We have a eustation tube that connects the inner ear to the throat. It works unless you have a cold and are congested. :D

So we must perceive sound as a change in air pressure, or a distortion in air pressure, relative to a baseline. It's a matter of waves, not overall air pressure

The wave of energy passes through the air causing the density of the air molecules to compress and expand. The molecules themselves don't move very far, but the wave will keep going until it all its energy is converted to some other form of energy, like heat.
 
You're talking about two different things.

Changing pressure inside a container is one thing, there is NO change in volume...expanding or contracting the airtight container is a different thing and would be an attempt to chnage the volume....but if it's airtight, that can't happend without the container bursting and allowing the change....and then it's no longer airtight.

Nu-uh! What would cause the container to crumble? The only thing exerting force on the walls of the container is liquid pressure. If you take a balloon and submerge it, and then you pull it further underwater, the deeper you go the higher the water pressure will be on the balloon. As the water pressure increases, it will push on all points on the balloon at once and will cause the balloon to contract - internal volume in the balloon will decrease, and the air inside will be at higher pressure.

No balloons rupturing here.
 
OK...but is not the 10ft crest an effect of the two waves coming together?
If they just passed through...with no interaction...there would be no crest.

I'll pick up in the morning...must get some zzzzzzzzz

Okay, good night, but to answer your question.. YES, it's an effect on the water, not the waves!! The water moves up 10 ft, the waves are the energy that caused the water to move up. Same thing as your ear hearing 5 notes on the piano, your ear will hear it, but the individual sound waves don't interact with each other. They don't change the pitch of the notes, or duration, or anything else.
 
Chili, thanks for flushing out the unclear points. Let me try to make a rudimentary diagram for you. A sound wave I would diagram like this (with lines closer together indicating higher pressure, and lines farther apart indicating lower pressure):


low high low high low high low high
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]



But if the whole ocean (or whole air volume) is oscillating, there are no waves. You get:

Whole Volume High
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]

then:

Whole Volume Low

[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]



See, there's still an oscilation of pressure, but even assuming walls are around the perimeter there are no waves to bounce around.

No waves=no bouncing=no reflections. But would there still be sound? According to your post earlier, yeah, an omni or an ear would hear something (if it were the right frequency).
 
You know, even if the change in air pressure were inaudible due to it being too low or high of a frequency, it would still reflect.

Someone needs to submerge an omni in a balloon, pull it up and down in the water at a set oscillation rate, increase the amplitude, and speed it up. We'll hear the reflections if they are there.
 
And another thing, why's my mix so quiet? I downloaded the trial version of Izotrope Argon, and I set the smusher to 800:1. It's supposed to sound like the new Megolithic record. I heard they used a smusher too. But mine's all quiet, and theirs is all awesome and LOUD with, like, distortion on the bass drum. It's sweeeeeet.
 
Chili, thanks for flushing out the unclear points. Let me try to make a rudimentary diagram for you. A sound wave I would diagram like this (with lines closer together indicating higher pressure, and lines farther apart indicating lower pressure):


low high low high low high low high
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]
[ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ] [ [ [ [] ] ] ]



But if the whole ocean (or whole air volume) is oscillating, there are no waves. You get:

Whole Volume High
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][]

then:

Whole Volume Low

[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]



See, there's still an oscilation of pressure, but even assuming walls are around the perimeter there are no waves to bounce around.

No waves=no bouncing=no reflections. But would there still be sound? According to your post earlier, yeah, an omni or an ear would hear something (if it were the right frequency).

Okay, I kind of get where you're going, but I think there are some flaws in your assumptions. You can't get from "Whole Volume High" to "Whole Volume Low" without a change in pressure and that means a change in energy and that means a wave of some sort and that means it will reflect, or whatever it is that waves do. Not sure I can explain it good enough, but basically, in your example, you don't get something for nothing. The change from high to low requires energy and all that comes with it. waves, reflections, etc.
 
And another thing, why's my mix so quiet? I downloaded the trial version of Izotrope Argon, and I set the smusher to 800:1. It's supposed to sound like the new Megolithic record. I heard they used a smusher too. But mine's all quiet, and theirs is all awesome and LOUD with, like, distortion on the bass drum. It's sweeeeeet.

limiters.....

800:1, oh wait, what's a smusher?? Is that a limiter?
 
Chili, you got me there. I meant oscillating between "Whole Pressure High" and "Whole Pressure Low". Of course, the only way I can think of creating this is to expand and contract the whole volume at once. Ergo my typo.

A change in pressure doesn't necessarily require a change in energy in the medium. If you use energy to mechanically change the volume, the pressure will follow. But you're right, it's going to need energy somewhere along the line...just like a wave.

And the mix-too-quiet post was for Glen, because he expressed happiness that this thread had not devolved into that. ;) The rest of the sentence is just a bunch of digs on "mastering" plugins, overcompression, the new Metallica record, and the general loss of dynamic range in the universe.
 
The intensity-distance relationship of a sound wave is an inverse relationship so an increase in one quantity corresponds to a decrease in the other quantity. So if you theoretically built a room that would increase the distance the wave travels (expand the room) to the point of zero intensity then there would be no sound in the room, would there? If so, wouldn't this also have an effect on whatever medium the room is in and transfer the sound to it?

I knew all along it was my room that was causing my mix to be too quiet.:p
 
Chili, you got me there. I meant oscillating between "Whole Pressure High" and "Whole Pressure Low". Of course, the only way I can think of creating this is to expand and contract the whole volume at once.
Yeah, but that still won't make your mix any louder! ;) :D.

The thing with your thought experiment, Brent, is that the volume change cannot be instantaneous. There has to be movement of the walls in and out, even if it takes an inperceptenbly small amount of time, because we're talking about a change from one location or state to another. The very idea of "change" requires time; it "was" like that, "now" it's like this.

If the walls just quantum jumped without movement, there'd be no change in air pressure because the walls would jump right across the air volume instead of pushing in the air molecules with them.

That movement means each wall is acting like a speaker membrane causing pressure changes in the inside volume. But that pressure change takes time to propagate, it does not happen uniformly across the entire room volume at the same time. Instead, near the wall the pressure will build up first, and it will then take the form of a pressure wave with will travel inward across the room. At such a point it's in basic principle no different than a similar pressure wave that came from somewhere inside the volume and simply reflected off the wall.

Extrapolate that to 6 surfaces, and the interactions get a bit more complicated, but the basic idea stays the same; you will have pressure waves moving through the volume and not instantaneous pressure change across the whole volume.

The atmosphere is like a liquid, changes in it can only propagate through it like waves, not occur simultaneously across the whole volume.

G.
 
Glen,

I didn't mean that the pressure in the volume changes instantaneously, I just meant that whatever causes the pressure to change happens at all points. I was trying to illustrate that there is a pressure change without a localized source.

Maybe that's impossible, but I didn't intend for my graph to indicate any sort of instantaneous change. It's gradual.

I gather that you're dancing around the conclusion that a pressure change in a medium will always have a localized source. This is because any change in pressure requires a transfer of energy, and even the fastest-moving energy we know of has a top speed.
 
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