DAW vs other Workflow. Frustrated with computers...

[BxD]

Telling folks to stop updating their windows computer is a bad idea. It's just asking for trouble. I use my computer for everything, and wouldn't ever stop.

However, when it's time to run Cubase (full version 7.5.2) and record -- I remove the internet plug, then stop the anti virus, stop Box sync and Skydrive sync, then disable all sound playback devices. Plug in the Audio interface and start Cubase. Rock solid every time. Takes me about 10 secs to ready the machine. If I leave in the internet or a program, I get CPU spikes and general computer finicky-ness.

As for Cubase, it's great -- but I learned that when trying to learn something complex with it, you have to "lather, rinse and repeat" many times, or I just forget what I learned last time (the previous weekend).

 

[DebErney]

I've shared your frustration with DAW's. Tried Tracktion, Reaper, Cubase. The solution that has made me happy is when I record on my Zoom R-16 standalone (guitars, vocals, drum machine, bass, uku) then take the SD card to the computer for mixing the individual tracks. The vocals are recorded straight (straight to the recorder turns out the best) to R-16 or through a mixer, then guitar is recorded through a Boss ME-80. I can record 8 tracks at once and the mics on this recorder sound better then any of the mics I have tried with it. Heres the link to some of the music I've recorded this way. youtube/user/daerney. On Walk Away Renee, I've recorded the video with ZOOM Q4 then put the voice over with a recording I'd made with the R-16 and edited with Garageband. I left in the vocals that were recorded from the Q4 as I thought it added a nice delay effect to them. Everyone always slams GARAGEBAND, but thats the software I use the most. I'm more familiar with it and I've always been happy with the results. REAPER is a close second. The learning curve was not unbearable and Youtube has many videos. You can download reaper at REAPER Download for a free full version trial. My experience with recording software has been that the more you pay, the harder it is to use.

 

[WDI]

I love recording on computers. Very easy. However, and this is a big however, tape still sounds much better to me. I wish it wasn't so. And the tape machine I use is only a 1", Tascam MSR24. The audio interface I use is a Fireface 800. The computer recordings sound flat and boring.

It's the same when people post analog stuff they've recorded, even when it's not top of the line it usually sounds good sonically. Where as the computer stuff people post is usually a dime a dozen sound.

To me it's similar to a tube amp vs solid state. Tube amps just sound better to me.

However, that being said, it really comes down to performance. Some people can just make the tools they have work really good for them.

 

[DM60]

It's the same when people post analog stuff they've recorded, even when it's not top of the line it usually sounds good sonically. Where as the computer stuff people post is usually a dime a dozen sound.

Wouldn't you think this is due to the analog people really having a better grasp, more experience and more commitment to the craft? Let's face it, majority of the people recording with computers have a couple of grand sunk into it and not nearly the time invested. They use many out of the box settings and frankly are not nearly as dedicated as majority of the analog people.

Of all the people on this board there may be 20-30 digital only folks that are really at a high level. The rest of us do as hobbies and have varying degrees of time investment. Plus the last 20 years, I don't think much commercially has been put out that is really analog created.

Point I am making, I think you are blaming the technology when it really is the user.

 

[WDI]

Wouldn't you think this is due to the analog people really having a better grasp, more experience and more commitment to the craft? Let's face it, majority of the people recording with computers have a couple of grand sunk into it and not nearly the time invested. They use many out of the box settings and frankly are not nearly as dedicated as majority of the analog people.

Of all the people on this board there may be 20-30 digital only folks that are really at a high level. The rest of us do as hobbies and have varying degrees of time investment. Plus the last 20 years, I don't think much commercially has been put out that is really analog created.

Point I am making, I think you are blaming the technology when it really is the user.

I don't think so. Because I'm looking at it from my own experience as a novice. What I record on tape sounds better. All gear being the same except tape vs computer.

 

[acousticvillage]

I don't know...The guys I know who like "hardware" spend just as much time farting about with knobs and wires and buttons as people do wioth their DAW and plugins. The simple answer is to set up your DAW just as you need it and then leave it like that. You should invest a good half day setting up project and track templates, sorting out your most prized Go-To plugins (as opposed to all those great and wonderful plugins that you've acquired and which are all versions of classic analogue gear) and knowing your basic levels and startup position.

Then, set aside a distinct amount of time each week or month for "play time" when you can fart about as much as you want, trying out new stuff, etc. But invest the time in getting the setup you want and then it's all down to your own motivation.

 

[thesoundtek]

Over the years ( I'm 67) I've had recording experience using half and quarter track machines and later on recording in real studios using 2" tape and mixing on name desks. While the experience gave me a chance to use tape and analogue desks and learn to appreciate the "tonality" that analogue offers IMHO computer/DAW recording can be as rewarding.
Like many others here I've experimented and used different DAWs trying to find one that "fit" me. I've used Cubase, PT,samplitude,Acid,audacity,vegas,sound forge and the list goes on. Reaper is probably the best DAW (bang for the buck) around. As mentioned by others, there are hundreds of free tutorials and free vst and other format plugins that will work seamlessly in Reaper.
Reaper is a very, very "light" program and needs little cpu to function therefore making it very stable.I've used Reaper on a Pentium P4 1gb ram computer with great success and have worked my way up to my current rig which is an i7 8gb Win 64bit machine that I bought used for $350. I wanted to get into a machine that would do proper multi path processing and my demands for tracks and plugins has grown.
Reaper also treats plugins and virtual instruments the same as it does audio and midi. Making all of these operations very simple.
Track set up for recording gives you the options of either recording the input or the output ( with effects added if you choose). The "hardest" part about Reaper is simply learning the "vocabulary" and where everything is. Reaper will also allow you to restructure menus, create multifunction tools and change the appearnance to help you create a work flow that fits you. Being a pragmatic and somewhat frugal man, I love the fact that as reaper is constantly improving and upgrading the program and yet does not charge users for these upgrades. If I had gone through the same number of upgrades ,say, in Samplitude I would have spent in excess of $3000...in Reaper...free! Bottom line Reaper is hard to beat. BTW check out GVST for some great, simple to use, free plugins.
For my studio set up I use the routing in Reaper to create separate headphone monitor mixes to my drum room, and other players head phones. 16 track set up using three eight channel motu 2408 interfaces and two stereo head phone amps with assignable i/os. The computer is an HP i7 (first generation) with 8gb ram. A samsung 120 gig solid state HD for the operating system and a 1TB HD for storage. I bought the computer for $350 used and added the samsung hard drive for $119.00
I've also gone the all in one box route with a Zoom 16HD and a Roland 2480 both units are too limited. I have an Alesis 24 HD that I use for recording live shows that I mix but then transfer the tracks to my computer for the rest of the work.

 

[Rod Norman]

I work in animation and am learning Blender right now. Here's my advice: Do not work on your music with equipment you do not understand. Write, by all means. But recording is not "making" music. It is capturing sounds. First set up your system and practice using it. Record a little keyboard or singing or whatever, but get familiar with it first over period of time. Experiment a lot. Then record your demo of only guitar (or whatever) and voice to get the song down as a practice rough track. I hope that helps.
Rod Norman
Engineer

Don't get me wrong. I get along with computers very well. But it seems that I always have problems working with DAWs and plugins. They give enormous potential but somehow I spend most of my time troubleshooting my DAW, hardware and plugins, and I don't have enough energy left to work on my music. I am not a pro by the way. But I don't have too much free time, and I hate spending it trying to be a sound and computer engineer all the time.

I was just wondering if other people had these same sentiments. Sometimes I wonder if working with a simple cassette 4 track and a drum machine would yield better results than what I achieve using Cubase.

On the otherhand there must be a reason why all-in-one compact studios are kind of extinct except for TASCAM. People must not share my troubles I guess. Or simply I might have been unlucky?

 

[headwerkn]

Don't get me wrong. I get along with computers very well. But it seems that I always have problems working with DAWs and plugins. They give enormous potential but somehow I spend most of my time troubleshooting my DAW, hardware and plugins, and I don't have enough energy left to work on my music. I am not a pro by the way. But I don't have too much free time, and I hate spending it trying to be a sound and computer engineer all the time.

I was just wondering if other people had these same sentiments. Sometimes I wonder if working with a simple cassette 4 track and a drum machine would yield better results than what I achieve using Cubase.

My thinking has been along these lines for a few years now. Since graduating from a basic cassette 4-track in the mid-90s and moving up the DAW/interface 'foodchain', I noticed my effectiveness in recording my own work had decreased - quite a bit too. Like you I'm no hack with a computer (15+ years experience as a pro graphic designer, web dev and multimedia producer) but increased capability and options with DAWs and gear hasn't resulted in an increase in the amount of songs I manage to commit to disk. In my case, the wannabe engineer overtakes the wannabe rock star (!) and I get lost in playing with technology, rather than just being a musician and laying down a better take.

Interestingly enough I found an article several years ago about this very subject - Home Studios Are Killing Music - Ronan Chris Murphy - you'll have to Google it (still can't post URLs). Well worth a read - It was the "ah ha" moment for me.

I own and still use a few software DAW packages (Logic, PT, Reaper) and interfaces (Digi001, Mbox 2 mini) for other projects - for other people where high quality, speed and flexibility are required, but for my own work I changed over to a Roland VS2400 for a few years. That was still quite a sophisticated and powerful unit, so I've recently sold it and bought a Tascam 688 cassette multitracker... and yes, the creative juices and "just record it" mentality of my teen years have slowly returned.

Now, my own musical style is mostly acoustic-based with sparse production, so limited tracks and gear suits just fine. As the music is just for myself rather than release, I'm unfussed with absolute sonic fidelity... though it is worth mentioning that used carefully, the old Portastudio sounds a lot better than most would believe.

For me, limited equipment and limited options equal more focus and more creativity. They'd be a thousand people here who'd claim the exact opposite, and for their individual cases, they may well be right. The bottom line is, find what works for you. If Cubase et. al. is getting in the way of you making music, then you need to explore other options... whether it is an alternative DAW program, perhaps something like GarageBand with a simpler, more basic UI and feature set.... or some kind of digital or analog Portastudio.

Ultimately you'll know what is essential to your style of music - ie. virtual instruments, MIDI sequencing, or recording multiple acoustic sources - so try to find the most basic solution that meets those bare bones requirements. A simple cassette or digital multitracker may well be all you need.

Just remember - good music transcends the medium it was recorded on. Most of the critically lauded albums of the past 50 years were recorded on equipment with lower fidelity and capability than your mobile phone.

On the otherhand there must be a reason why all-in-one compact studios are kind of extinct except for TASCAM. People must not share my troubles I guess. Or simply I might have been unlucky?

In terms of the broader market, yes. The software DAW very much killed the pro-end of the stand alone digital workstation or studio-in-a-box (SIAB) market around 2005-2006, once typical home computers became powerful and reliable enough to handle multitrack audio recording playback.... and people ceased to be willing to pay $2000-$3000 for a dedicated, non upgradable bit of hardware. As such, all that remains are limited sketchpad type recorders.

But the Roland VS, Akai DPS, Yamaha AW and Korg D series units still have their fans. I used my Roland VS for several years and while it is not with certain drawbacks and limitations, I used it on several paying gigs to great affect. These sorts of units are extremely reliable when recording 8-16 tracks simultaneously over an extended time period - very useful for recording live gigs. Used prices are also a fraction of what they sold for new, so to the right person they can represent excellent value these days too.

Hope that helps!

Cheers, Ben.

 

[mdainsd]

Im still finding my way towards what works for me and is fun. That is why I do it. Im not likely to ever do any recording or producing for anyone but the band(s) Im in. And at this point in time there is no intent on releasing any of it. The band members want a recorded history of the band and its evolution. None of that means that I dont want to do the best job I can with this process. So....here is how it got started, where it is and maybe where it is going.

Background: As a youth I had been immersed in music from grade 4 through high school. I learned violin, switched to cello then finally to Viola. Made it as far as the San Diego youth symphony. All the time dabbling with guitar (anyone remember: Play Guitar with the Ventures?). On with the novel.

Rewind a few decades. In JC and college I took classes on film production then a little more focus on audio production. All analog as that was all there was way back then (early 70's). A few years later I had the job of Engineer (not audio, but all the Engineering responsibilities) at an Omnimax Space Theatre. In the basement, under the dome was a 48 channel recording studio. Many of the Omnimax films at the time did their audio at our facility. It was 2 MCI 24 track machines synced to each other and a huge custom MCI console. It was unique in that the console was 72X7. The final mixes were done to 35 MM sprocket edge magnetic tape, 7 channel. The playback machines were mechanically synced to the 70MM film projector, rock solid LOL. That was the audio format before Surround Sound or any of the others. My job responsibilities included maintaining and repairing all this gear. So I got to learn a lot sitting in the control room watching how this "production" thing was done. What an education, and getting paid to learn! Well as with most things I took another Engineering job in the Mil/Defense arena, so the whole audio thing just kind of went away. And with it playing any instrument left my life.

FF>> a few short years ago. I got back into music. Decided I wanted to play drums. My instructor said i should record my practices and review them and that would help me progress. Cool, except I didnt have anything to record on. Or did I? I had been fooling around with a program in my MacBook Pro called garageband. I had fun making stuff with the apple loops, but it was more of an amusement than anything else. But I remembered it could do audio recording. At that time Guitar Center was running free Saturday Morning workshops (read sales pitches) for Garage Band. Despite the sales pitches i learned a bunch. Hmmm first being I would need this thing called an interface. I asked questions and decided on a Tascam US 1800. That was probably more by dumb luck than my research, but it is still with me. With the interface came CueBase LE, so loaded it up and immediately became overwhelmed. I just couldnt do anything reliably with it or repeatable. I take responsibility for that. I just couldnt wrap my head around it. So how can I get to recording myself without all this frustration? Of course! Analog. (a mistake on my part at that time was that I probably should have reverted to GarageBand as I could work with that, but instead threw the baby out with the bath water).

The analog only era: I started hunting gear. Ive always liked the hunt anyway in whatever I do. The first acquisitions were a 24 track 2" tape machine and a Mackie 32.8.2 mixer. As an Engineer wiring everything up was like second nature to me. A few microphones later and I could record my practices, Yay! Overkill I hear you saying? Yes, the curse of an overachiever LOL. But in the process of hunting down the equipment I had progressed in my drumming to the point I was asked to join a band, so really a 24 track system seemed appropriate. Then I was set! Not so fast there. I needed a place to play that made recording the drums, and shortly later the band sound as good as I could get it to. I built out the live room. Then all this equipment needed a permanent place to I built the control room. Now we were tracking to tape and spending a lot of fun time doing mixes. GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) set in bad. In no time there were 3 2" 24 track machines synced together and a 24 channel expansion done to the Mackie. 1/2" and 1/4" two track machines found there way home, somehow. Dozens of outboard gates and dozens of outboard compressors. And of course this wasnt really conducive to "just recording band practices" as while I had the tape remote and auto locator next to my drum kit, I couldnt monitor levels etc. But it worked, kinda. During this phase I decided that I didnt like the Mackie boards, the EQs irritating me sonically, The second nail in that coffin was reliability, especially the pushbuttons that seemed to need to be exercised before every session despite deep cleaning of the consoles. Out with the Mackies, in with a big DDA. Very very happy with that solution. I will stick with that board (unless I discover a bargain on a Neve). Also the ridiculousness of 3 2" machines set in. Two were eliminated.

Back to the Future: While all the above was fun, it wasnt right for getting the job at hand done. Hmmm, I got to thinking. That MacBook is just sitting in the live room along with the interface??? So started fiddling with GB again, as I had sworn I would never open CueBase again. What do you know, in not very much time we were tracking every practice. If there was a particularly interesting one, we would rough mix it down and print CDs for each band member to work to or just keep for posterity.
I then decided a little bit more flexibility in the interface would be helpful. Coincidentally Guitar center was blowing out the Presonus Studio Live mixer/interfaces so I picked one up. I could use this thing as a stand alone mixer for live or an interface. This was really opening up possibilities for me. Now I had 24 channels available to me going into the box. Also started using it to mix from the tape machine with all that onboard processing. But, bundled with the mixer was an entry level copy of Presonus's Studio One DAW. I loaded it up in the MB. Tried it and instantly felt like this was something I could work with. I upgraded to Pro and its just a pleasure to use.

The Here and Now> So what I have now, is this evolved, convoluted hybrid system. With the copious use of patch bays its possible to be doing it straight analog and minutes later strictly digital. But for me, the best is the many different hybrid combinations that are possible. Analog desk? digital plugs? analog outboard effects? Digital recording, bunches of combinations. I can print to most formats: CD, cassette, R2R, Minidisc, Adats.

All in all Im pretty satisfied with were I am with all this.

 

[thesoundtek]

I work in animation and am learning Blender right now. Here's my advice: Do not work on your music with equipment you do not understand. Write, by all means. But recording is not "making" music. It is capturing sounds. First set up your system and practice using it. Record a little keyboard or singing or whatever, but get familiar with it first over period of time. Experiment a lot. Then record your demo of only guitar (or whatever) and voice to get the song down as a practice rough track. I hope that helps.
Rod Norman
Engineer

Excellent advice....probably the best listed throughout this string.Getting to know your DAW so that you are actually using it and not trying to muddle through it will absolutely improve one's mental/creative attitude and allow ideas, both musical and technical to flow.

 

[kidkage]

Telling folks to stop updating their windows computer is a bad idea. It's just asking for trouble. I use my computer for everything, and wouldn't ever stop.

Well not stop updating all together.
I think most around here would agree that automatic updates are the devil. A lot of people don't connect their studio computers connected to the internet. I used to but turned off all the automatic updates, etc.

Wouldn't you think this is due to the analog people really having a better grasp, more experience and more commitment to the craft? Let's face it, majority of the people recording with computers have a couple of grand sunk into it and not nearly the time invested. They use many out of the box settings and frankly are not nearly as dedicated as majority of the analog people.

Of all the people on this board there may be 20-30 digital only folks that are really at a high level. The rest of us do as hobbies and have varying degrees of time investment. Plus the last 20 years, I don't think much commercially has been put out that is really analog created.

Point I am making, I think you are blaming the technology when it really is the user.

Yeah, I got into a discussion about the analog vs. digital debate yesterday.

Like you said, I think the digital v. analog debate is the same as the X Daw vs. X Daw debate. It's all about how the user feels about it with their own workflow and comfort level.

 

[BxD]

Well not stop updating all together.
I think most around here would agree that automatic updates are the devil. A lot of people don't connect their studio computers connected to the internet. I used to but turned off all the automatic updates, etc.

Maybe in the old days of pre-win 7 might it have been smart to be careful about updates, but I don't think that's the case any longer. Though unless one lacks confidence in general about the OS and their specific HW they have (driver management, what stuff should be disabled if troubleshooting issues, etc,) or surfs where they ought not to, there is no reason to have your computer isolated from the internet -- except when using it for studio stuff. ...and if folks are pirating SW, they get what they deserve when they have computer or SW issues.

 

[kidkage]

Maybe in the old days of pre-win 7 might it have been smart to be careful about updates, but I don't think that's the case any longer. Though unless one lacks confidence in general about the OS and their specific HW they have (driver management, what stuff should be disabled if troubleshooting issues, etc,) or surfs where they ought not to, there is no reason to have your computer isolated from the internet -- except when using it for studio stuff. ...and if folks are pirating SW, they get what they deserve when they have computer or SW issues.

I don't think that hardware;OS issues are the problem as much as OS;software issues are (were) for me at least.
Some little update would always lead into some issue for Cubase causing it to BSOD. Or mismanage CPU power. And/or my plug-ins would have to be updated (to fix whatever issue with whatever OS update). And then that would lead to having to download or script a MIDI remote script update. Like you said - yeah, these things can be dealt with. But spending X amount of time troubleshooting when I need to work on a project is something that I like to avoid whenever possible.

My main issue with the automatic updates on my old studio computer was that I hated going to work on music and seeing it update "...21 minutes remaining" or having to deal with the "updating in 14 minutes" pop-up There was one time when I went to walk the dog, came back, and my PC was updating. THAT was when I turned them off for good.

 

[kidkage]

if folks are pirating SW, they get what they deserve when they have computer or SW issues.

+100

 

[ashcat_lt]

I always thought the automatic update thing was just to stop the computer from putting any of its resources into doing anything that you haven't asked it to do. Automatic updates is a service which runs in the background and while it may not do much all the time, it does do something sometimes, and if it decides to do that something right when you need all the processing power you can get it could cause glitches and other stuff and whatever.

That said, most of the stuff that comes across Automatic Updates is security fixes, which are only really necessary if you're connecting to the internet. Don't connect it to the internet, turn off all the network services (again, to free up all the ticks we can) and you won't need automatic updates or anti-virus/malware anything and you can devote all of your processor and RAM to the one thing that really needs it. Use something else for searching for boobs and downloading bit torrents.

 

[BxD]

Yes, it's a service. But if there is no internet connection, it just sits there with nothing to do. That's why I unplug it before starting Cubase

 

[BroKen_H]

You guys are writing books here! Took me 15 minutes to read through 8 hours posts!
I've got four machines in the house. Like I've said before, build your hex core i7 with the GTX Titan graphics and 16 GB hyperx beast memory and go play games. Build your quad core i5 with 8gb, quiet fans and fairly stock graphics (unless you're using multiple monitors) and play music! I see so many people building gaming machines to run a DAW. It's overkill. If you can only afford one machine, choose to play games or play music...A good DAW machine can be built or bought for less than $800.
Also, updates are best done at one shot. When you update your DAW, make a restore point, update your OS, and your graphics THEN your DAW and turn the updates back off. It IS a service and it DOESN'T run hog wild if the internet's not on. But there's nothing more frustrating than turning your machine on when you have an hour to mix on your song, and it takes up 20 minutes with updates and reboots. The next best frustration is having a massive download start while you're trying to record a tricky part in a song.

 

[BroKen_H]

I had my eyes opened to the trouble with recording vs practicing just a couple weeks ago. Realized I'm trying to mix poorly played/sung tracks and spending WAY too much time moving, stretching, editing, cutting, etc....Time to practice more and get better tracks

 

[miroslav]

But there's nothing more frustrating than turning your machine on when you have an hour to mix on your song, and it takes up 20 minutes with updates and reboots. The next best frustration is having a massive download start while you're trying to record a tricky part in a song.

Run your DAW off-line....and then you can turn off all that shit permanently and never bother to install another OS patch.

I know that's not possible for some of you, since your DAW computer is also your everything-else computer.....but no better way than having a DAW-dedicated computer that can run off-line. You can keep it very lean, and there's nothing else to clutter your usage. No need for even anti-virus software....which is always running when you have it installed on any computer.
The only thing to watch for is when you transfer files to the DAW....just have them come from a computer that is properlyt patched with current anti-virus defs....that way the files are clean when they are transfered to your DAW.