Click Tracks

[gecko zzed]

I really never understand this "either/or" mentality. There are times when one works better than the other. Dogma is a dangerous thing.

Quite so! It is not "either/or".

For the record:

When recording my own material, I always use a click.

When recording someone else's material, I go with how they prefer to do it.

Mostly, if the band is playing and being recorded 'live', there is no click. If the songs are well played-in, tempo changes are okay.

If the band is recording track by track, I will encourage a click.

If a musician is recording material and expects others to come in later and put down parts (i.e. it is not a band as such), I will usually insist on a click (specially if there are parts to be scored out).

If there are places where the song should slow down (for example, at the end), or speed up, I get them to play how it should go and program the tempo changes in midi, and adjust until it feels 'right'.

For me, it is a most uncomfortable sensation having to listen to 'timing tension', i.e. where the instruments are slightly out with each other in timing (e.g. a guitarist pushing ahead (unnaturally) of the beat, or a drummer lagging behind (because he is listening for the click instead of riding with it).

 

[I Got Riffs]

Back to the OP’s question.
Why don’t you just use your MIDI sequencer to create the exact BMPs you need along with the various changes?
The click will follow the MIDI sequence if it is being triggered by it. I've done that in the past.
It shouldn’t be difficult if the song has set parts/changes, that way you CAN have a click even with the changes. Now, if you want to also allow “human error” (drift/sway) during the small transitions between the various time changes…then that will be more difficult to sequence in, but again, someone can call that drift/sway “groove”, others will call it sloppy playing.
Take your pick…it’s all a matter of perspective.

This is pretty much what I had in mind. Automate the changes when I know exactly what their going to be and muting it when I want a free flowing humanly effect. Mixing it up is definately an easy answer - there's never one solution for these sorts of things.

Anyway, this is all theoretical for me, being that my recording sessions are few and far between. I just spend a lot of time brainstorming things before applying them. So gathering opinions seems like a good way to avoid looking like a nut when I do work with other musicians.

I don't think "either/or" is so much a mentality as it is a way of speaking. Writing and recording music is a very creative process. I'd imagine very few of us believe there's not more than two ways to do things.

 

[In Tune Audio]

I don't subscribe to either the click or no click arguement. It totally depends on the material and the performers.

Having said that, I usually encourage clients (especially weaker playing ones) to use a click. Once they hear the recorded material they want to do lots of editing (The argument whether they should be recording or not is another topic) because they hear the problems. That editing is done cleaner and easier with a click. Recording to a click has saved many tracks in my studio.

I've not had a client to date that has complained they used the click but once a song is done I've heard many wish they had because they heard the rhythmic problems.


However, there aren't many things better than a great band playing a great track totally natural with feel and flow without a click.

 

[miroslav]

I really never understand this "either/or" mentality. There are times when one works better than the other. Dogma is a dangerous thing.

Did someone say "either/or".....?

 

[RAMI]

Dogma is a dangerous thing.

That's OK. I lost control of my Karma and ran over my Dogma .

 

[grimtraveller]

That's OK. I lost control of my Karma and ran over my Dogma .

I defeated my karma, repeated my dogma and deleted Obama.

 

[RAMI]

I defeated my karma, repeated my dogma and deleted Obama.

Oh Yeah? Well I danced a Samba, sang La Bomba, and beat up Stevie Wondah!

 

[Paulie Jay]

Money is played to that loop of the cash registers. All the way up until the part where it goes back into 4/4 time, it is locked to the loop. The loop IS the click track, they just turned it up and down in the mix.

.

That's what I'm talking about - the shift in tempo after the change to 4/4 and the shift back out again. Had they adhered to a strict click the whole way through the song things would have been different.

 

[Farview]

That's a deliberate time signature and tempo change. That wasn't an ebb and flow thing like people are talking about. You can do that with a click. Including the gradual speed up into the solo part.

 

[RAMI]

That's what I'm talking about - the shift in tempo after the change to 4/4 and the shift back out again. Had they adhered to a strict click the whole way through the song things would have been different.

Actually, that's not true. When it goes into 4/4, the click would be the same. It changes time signature but not tempo. I know what you're saying, though, but that's not good example of it.

EDIT: I apologize. I was wrong. Money definitely speeds up gradually in the solo parts. The song starts at about 124bpm and goes up to about 127-130bpm later. My mistake. Your example was good.

 

[grimtraveller]

Oh Yeah? Well I danced a Samba, sang La Bomba, and beat up Stevie Wondah!

With or without the click ?

 

[noisewreck]

Did someone say "either/or".....?

Oh, I am sorry, you're right. There were some "you should only.."s and a laughter to the idea that there can be a drummer that can nail their takes w/o a click track

 

[miroslav]

Oh, I am sorry, you're right. There were some "you should only.."s and a laughter to the idea that there can be a drummer that can nail their takes w/o a click track

Nailing a take is one thing...nailing the timing perfectly is another.
With some exceptions...you can take 10 drummers, tell them you want a 120 BMP tempo, then let them play for a 4-5 minute song...then put up a 120 BMP click against their playing...
...and then come back to this thread and tell us how many were even close to holding it steady throughout the entire song!
Now to that...add 4-5 more band memebrs who might already have trouble following the drummer throughout...
...and then tell me it's nothing more than "groove".
Not to mention, that one of the others could easily "pull" the drummer off.

I've said that with a whole band, recording at once, and everyone playing fairly tight...a click could be avoided.
But having the drummer tight and everyone else drifting, or even one person drifting...or when doing mostly solo, one track at a time, recording...I would insist on using a click.

All that said...I have yet to hear one valid argument why playing to a click is not possible or so difficult to do...so I don't get the objections to it.
You tap your foot when you play...or you listen to the drummer...or you use a click...it's all the same shit.
I know some clicks just sound crappy...but if you use a real percussion sound that becomes part of the drum sound...and maybe even do it with an accent on the 2nd and 4th beats...or just the 4th....it's no different than when the drummer plays that same percussion.

 

[grimtraveller]

All that said...I have yet to hear one valid argument why playing to a click is not possible or so difficult to do...so I don't get the objections to it.

Could it be that so many of the songs we've loved and grooved to over half a century did not involve playing to clicks coz drummers were revered for their chops which included steady as a rock timekeeping ? Could it be that few of us when jamming jam to clicks ? Could it be that we just don't like being told what to do ?

I remember 30 years ago when the disco craze was (ironically, just after punk was supposed to dealt the death knell to such super slick, 'tightly controlled' music !) riding the crest of a wave, among many peoples' objections was the ultra tight, never deviating from 120 BPM metronomic beat. It was great to dance to and until someone pointed out the beat specifics, I would never have even noticed such matters {same way I never would've noticed the chord progression of "Here, there and everywhere" is repeated in the middle section of "Sexy Sadie"}. I think sometimes coz such a big thing is made of clicks one can maybe feel that it's not actually necesary and if not necesary, then..........

 

[noisewreck]

Nailing a take is one thing...nailing the timing perfectly is another.
With some exceptions...you can take 10 drummers, tell them you want a 120 BMP tempo, then let them play for a 4-5 minute song...then put up a 120 BMP click against their playing...

...and then come back to this thread and tell us how many were even close to holding it steady throughout the entire song!

That's assuming that not deviating from 120BPM by some margine is actually a good thing Also, it's quite telling that you chose 120BPM in you example. I don't think you did it on purpose, but unfortunately it is a tempo that's being ingrained in many of us, as it is also for some odd reason the default tempo of pretty much any DAW/sequencer I've seen.

Now to that...add 4-5 more band memebrs who might already have trouble following the drummer throughout...

If they're having a trouble following the drummer, then they have bigger issues, and I'd have a hard time believing that a click track would save them.

I have yet to hear one valid argument why playing to a click is not possible or so difficult to do

When you put the issue in that manner, there are no good arguments. If you can't play to a click, then you should learn. However...

...so I don't get the objections to it.

The objections to it (at least my objections to it) is NOT whether it's difficult or impossible, but whether it is necessarily the RIGHT thing to do. There is a difference there

You tap your foot when you play

I don't Since I was trained as a classical pianist, such things were frowned upon

...or you listen to the drummer...or you use a click...it's all the same shit.
I know some clicks just sound crappy...but if you use a real percussion sound that becomes part of the drum sound...and maybe even do it with an accent on the 2nd and 4th beats...or just the 4th....it's no different than when the drummer plays that same percussion.

No argument. I will often lay down a scratch drum track for tempo reference to play to it because personally I need the reference, plus it's much more pleasant to listen to than a simple click. However, there are times when I will not use it... or rather I may have a couple of bars of it going at the beginning of a take, but than have it off so I can play w/o it to make it easier to make intentional and natural tempo changes.

Personally, one of the things I absolutely love about punk music is the crazy tempo changes that occur. And stuff like this has been becoming more and more rare, and I suspect part of this is because we have enslaved ourselves to playing to a click, DAWs themselves make it difficult to do this (especially if you also want to include some MIDI sequences), and we want our club music to be nice and simple 4/4 stompy stomp.

Finally, I recommend you listen to some 19th and early 20th century music played by good artists. It's amazing how a 110 piece orchestra can actually play together, including some nice tempo changes, tight rhythm by following a conductor. Even better, listen to an orchestra such as Il Giardino Armonico, who specialize in Baroque music, do not have a conductor and have such tight timing that will put your click track to shame. And THEN come back to me and tell me that you can't have people play together, and keep a steady tempo w/o a click track.

If they can't, that's because they're a buncha lazy hacks that think they should record before learning how to play.

 

[miroslav]

Look...no one is saying a tight band playing together can't sound good without a click. Depending how much and when any sway/drift occurs...it will not necessarily always be noticed.
But playing to some off-time *groove*....and NOT being able to hold steady time (aka random drift/sway)...are two different things!

If I feel one timing while playing...and the drummer feels another...and the bass another...and NONE of us are actually *on time*...
...who should follow who?
I don't buy into the notion that a loose drummer should be the de-facto time keeper...no matter what.
Nor do I buy into the notion that ONLY the drummer is responsible for setting/holding time.
To me, a drummer is just another band member and drums are NOT the only instrument responsible for time keeping....everyone is....and everyone affects each other.
When that's the situation...you need an impartial, solid time reference...and that is a click.


Most people seem to object to clicks because they are either unfamiliar to using them, or some just can't keep up with the tight timing of a click.

The point here is...if you can play with a super tight drummer and look to him for time keeping...what's the difference between him and a click track AFA keeping up with the timing?


AFA doing music that is not "click friendly"...total improvisational stuff...19th Century classical...or whatever.
Fine…turn it off.
I'm just talking about basic Rock/Pop music.

 

[miroslav]

Also, it's quite telling that you chose 120BPM in you example.

I don't think I've ever written a song at 120 BPM.
It's just the stupid default setting on almost every MIDI/DAW application I've ever seen (probably 'cuz it divides easy with 60 seconds - DUH! ).
I actually think a lot of guys don't even know they can change that default setting...which is why you get a lot of songs done at 120 BMP!

I just like sold, tight timing...even at 88 BPM.

 

[timkroeger]

Some people don't like the click sounds because they are to synthetic or they feel the click is too "accurate". I think this could best be compared to a drummer listening to the click instead of just going with it. The performance lags or sounds unnatural.

Some bands just have their drummer (who should be the one with the best timing ) put down a few bars of percussion - e.g. a shaker or something - to a click, then loop it and use it instead of the click. If it's done right and accurately, there is a more "natural" feel to it and the drummer may be able to get into "synchronized mode". He is now playing to his own timing which essentially is not true, since you can easily change that, but if the synchronization issues are more of a psychological nature, this simple trick may help and you still have the muted "real" click.

Cheers
Tim

 

[mattdee1]

With some exceptions...you can take 10 drummers, tell them you want a 120 BMP tempo, then let them play for a 4-5 minute song...then put up a 120 BMP click against their playing...
...and then come back to this thread and tell us how many were even close to holding it steady throughout the entire song!
Now to that...add 4-5 more band memebrs who might already have trouble following the drummer throughout...
...and then tell me it's nothing more than "groove".
Not to mention, that one of the others could easily "pull" the drummer off.

I don't really understand why the "adding other band members" thing seems to you like such a sure recipe for timing disaster if a click isn't used. I mean sure, if some or all of the band members completely suck... but with a modest level of ability I don't see how it HAS to be such a big deal.

As long as a song is well-rehearsed before it is recorded, any slight speed-ups or slow-downs will by that point be kind of "baked" into the song and therefore the other musicians should "feel" them coming when laying down their respective overdubs.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

The point here is...if you can play with a super tight drummer and look to him for time keeping...what's the difference between him and a click track AFA keeping up with the timing?

miroslav, the issue seems to be that you think a great professional band keeping time is equivalent to a metronome keeping time, so what's the point in not using a metronome?

But the thing is, a great professional band keeping their own time can sound much BETTER than they would if they were on a metronome. The best human time is more musical and enjoyable than electronically perfect time in certain songs.

The thing is such musicians are rare and not all types of songs benefit from human time, so many of us will never be in that situation. As somebody who has been in that situation: Trust me, there are definately times when the song comes out better when you turn the metronome off.