Click Tracks

[I Got Riffs]

Long before I started working with midi and sequencing, I always recorded my audio to a click. So using midi to perfectly sync drum samples and keyboard has come really natural to me. I've actually very recently learned how to automate tempo changes, although I've never really needed to because my own music is so straightforward. But as I expand my home studio and make it welcome to others, I'd like to get a better idea of how musicians might expect a producer to do things.

So my first question is for those that rely on a click as much as I do, should I push a musician to record to one even if they're not used to it?

Also, piano is a good example of an instrument that often sounds better when not perfect. So how should I go about recording something with tempo changes? If I were doing it myself, it would be midi of course and I would probably play the part in one tempo and then edit the changes afterward. But I can see how this might not be the best way to capture a great performance. Or I can automate the tempo beforehand so that the click changes tempo with the performance... Or should I just let go of the click altogether so the musician can just play with their own feeling?

To be honest, I'm pretty narrow-minded about it. I don't think I would want to record a session with a drummer that refused to use triggers or play to a click. But I know it's not always going to be about whatever makes it easier for me.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

It sounds to me like you do need to check some of your own preferences at the door when you record others. You should absolutely trust a drummer to play without a click if he knows what he's doing. I know people will come into this thread and claim they know what's best for everyone, but I think that if a band or drummer can nail their takes without a click track then that's just fine. It does not matter if the band sways ever so sightly out of mechanical time, as long as it's not perceptible to the human ear. I personally do it both ways, depending on the song or method. If I have a drummer to play along with, and that drummer has good natural time then I lay down drums first and go with that as the anchor. If I am alone, I will often play the drums first myself, or if there won't be any drums I will lay a click down and then play my guitar, piano, or whatever else. After years of doing this I have come to trust the musicians.

 

[miroslav]

...drummer can nail their takes without a click track...

It does not matter if the band sways ever so sightly out of mechanical time, as long as it's not perceptible to the human ear.

Well yeah...if it's a whole band playing together at one time. But when you are doing individual tracks one at a time...then that "sway" can add up or cause issues as the track count rises.
Sure, you can follow a drummer...but what is HE following if you are doing single tracks?
If you two are playing against each other, you could BOTH be "swaying".
Now...when you lay down all those other tracks, you have to "sway" in the same spots for it to work...otherwise, it's all over the place.

Personally...I use a click for everything...including for the drummer to have as a reference, and even with a click, there is enough room for "groove" and "feel" to be intorduced, IMO.

A click keeps everyone honest.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Well yeah...if it's a whole band playing together at one time. But when you are doing individual tracks one at a time...then that "sway" can add up or cause issues as the track count rises.
Sure, you can follow a drummer...but what is HE following if you are doing single tracks?
If you two are playing against each other, you could BOTH be "swaying".
Now...when you lay down all those other tracks, you have to "sway" in the same spots for it to work...otherwise, it's all over the place.

Personally...I use a click for everything...including for the drummer to have as a reference, and even with a click, there is enough room for "groove" and "feel" to be intorduced, IMO.

A click keeps everyone honest.

When I mentioned recording a drummer first, what I mean is I will have the whole band direct in and only keep the drum tracks and the bass guitar, and then go back and overdub the other instrumentation parts. Or it will just be bass or guitar direct in with drums, with the only drum track being recorded. This approach requires more than 4 tracks of course, if you don't have that capability then you should use a click for the most part.

 

[miroslav]

Again...you’re talking about a whole band.
For a solo artist and/or when doing typical multi-tracking...that's not the case.
You're building it 1-2 tracks at a time.

But if you have the whole band playing to begin with...why not just record that way? Why start with a whole band and then throw away all but the drums and bass and then go back and do all those tracks over again, one at a time...?
Is there something wrong with those other tracks that you need to do them over?

Though even if recording drums/bass/guitar to start...I would still prefer to use a click if I'm going to be recording a lot more tracks later, and if I'm planning to do any editing.
I'm not saying you can't be "tight enough" for it to work...but I just prefer the timing stability of a click track for reference. There is NO question or argument when you have a click.

Like I said, the only time I would skip the click is if/when actually recording the whole band with only minimal overdubs to follow....as if it was a live band playing. But even then, if there was too much *unintentional* rhythmic "sway"...the click would come out.
I like a tight beat for rock/pop.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Again...you’re talking about a whole band.
For a solo artist and/or when doing typical multi-tracking...that's not the case.
You're building it 1-2 tracks at a time.

But if you have the whole band playing to begin with...why not just record that way? Why start with a whole band and then throw away all but the drums and bass and then go back and do all those tracks over again, one at a time...?
Is there something wrong with those other tracks that you need to do them over?

Though even if recording drums/bass/guitar to start...I would still prefer to use a click if I'm going to be recording a lot more tracks later, and if I'm planning to do any editing.
I'm not saying you can't be "tight enough" for it to work...but I just prefer the timing stability of a click track for reference. There is NO question or argument when you have a click.

Like I said, the only time I would skip the click is if/when actually recording the whole band with only minimal overdubs to follow....as if it was a live band playing. But even then, if there was too much *unintentional* rhythmic "sway"...the click would come out.
I like a tight beat for rock/pop.

Absolutely I have a reason to discard the other tracks.
1. I don't have an isolation booth to put the guitar amp or vocalist into. So that leaves me with a low volume scratch track for vocals when it's necessary for cues and such, and a direct in guitar track. I HATE direct in guitar tracks.

2. I do usually keep the direct bass track, but occasionally I blend an amped track with the direct bass. That requires isolation, hence an overdub.

But I DO sometimes record an entire band together and keep the whole thing, with the exception of vocals and lead guitar. I just deal with the bleed and chalk it up to live band or garage band style. I agree with you
actually.

 

[Paulie Jay]

It does not matter if the band sways ever so sightly out of mechanical time, as long as it's not perceptible to the human ear.

Well yeah...if it's a whole band playing together at one time.

To be honest, I don't mind if it is perceptible as long as it sounds natural. Throw a metronome over Pink Floyd's "Money" an it's all over the place, but the band moves as a unit so it works.

Not really relevant to the OP, of course

 

[miroslav]

Absolutely I have a reason to discard the other tracks.
1. I don't have an isolation booth to put the guitar amp or vocalist into. So that leaves me with a low volume scratch track for vocals when it's necessary for cues and such, and a direct in guitar track. I HATE direct in guitar tracks.

Sorry...I know you said "I will have the whole band direct in"...but I just didn't catch the DI reference.
Absolutely...I hate DI guitars too!

OK...so you just use DI guitars and a soft vocal as scratch tracks...and then OD them later.
Cool....that's one way to get the full band sound w/o having to click track.
If the band is real tight and has been playing together long enough to "sway" minimally *and at the same time*...then I agree, you don't need to always click track.

I've been using click tracks for over 30 years now. Mostly 'cuz I’ve always done a LOT of recording by myself, one track at a time (and it's also a good guide when I'm cut/paste editing).
So it's just second nature for me to have a click running. Plus, I learned to practice with a metronome when I was taking piano lessons. My teacher made sure it was ALWAYS ON!

But I’m surprised at how many players have poor time-keeping, and some drummers are not always better...mostly the younger, unseasoned players (young lead guitarists are the worst!).
Then when you say something, they say they’re just playing with a "natural" groove.

 

[I Got Riffs]

But I’m surprised at how many players have poor time-keeping, and some drummers are not always better...mostly the younger, unseasoned players (young lead guitarists are the worst!).
Then when you say something, they say they’re just playing with a "natural" groove.

Yeah that's what I mean. It would be painful to complete a project like that knowing that it would have turned out better if they'd taken your advice. There's more to it than just pushing my personal preferences on others. It could be a perfectly reasonable proffesional opinion.

But I guess to get back to my original topic... For those that do use a click religiously, do you still use it when there's a lot of changes going on? Would you even bother to automate the changes or just go without it?

 

[I Got Riffs]

But I DO sometimes record an entire band together and keep the whole thing, with the exception of vocals and lead guitar. I just deal with the bleed and chalk it up to live band or garage band style. I agree with you
actually.

We definately have a very different aproach to recording. It sounds like you prefer to capture the sound of a band the way that they sound when they're playing live. Beside that fact that I just record myself, I don't even play live. If I did, it would be more a matter of figuring out how to bring the sound of my recordings to the stage. Although, if I was going to record a band, I would probably do it your way. A band that was looking to really get creative in the studio would probably need a more proffesional producer than myself anyway.

 

[grimtraveller]

Click here for take off.

I think both approaches are more than valid. I've said this before, but playing live with a metronomic rhythm track taught me how sloppy I could be and I soon learned to tighten up but still be loose and laid back within metronomic time. But I don't record with a click coz I do like the ebb and flow of players interacting. If there are slow downs and speed ups, so be it if it seems to add something interesting, or we do another take. Playing to a click doesn't guarantee a faultless performance either. But I've got nothing against them. I think one should always at least be open to playing to a click.

 

[miroslav]

But I guess to get back to my original topic... For those that do use a click religiously, do you still use it when there's a lot of changes going on? Would you even bother to automate the changes or just go without it?

I messed with that a couple of times back in my MIDI days.
I automated the changes with MIDI...and the click followed.

 

[miroslav]

If there are slow downs and speed ups, so be it if it seems to add something interesting, or we do another take. Playing to a click doesn't guarantee a faultless performance either.

Yeah....it's OK for musicians to *intentionally* drift from the timing, but the reality of it is that most times, they drift because they’ve lost it!
Then when something is said, everyone always brings up *groove* as a reason for their timing issues, but most often it's the result of 1 guy loosing the timing, which then "pulls" everyone else off.
That's especially true when it's the drummer doing it!

Sure, there are natural spots in certain songs where the band might drag or speed up a tiny bit for effect...but IMO, when it's just a lot of drifting due to sloppy playing/timing...that's not *groove*.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Yeah....it's OK for musicians to *intentionally* drift from the timing, but the reality of it is that most times, they drift because they’ve lost it!

I'd say the reality is that professional musicians use slight tempo changes to the advantage of the song and have a rock solid groove with or without a metronome.

But most of us don't ever see a professional musician in front of our microphones.



The difference between a professional drummer and an awesome hobby drummer is the difference between a public access TV show and Avatar in the movie theaters.

A home recordist would be wise to not tell a professional musician that they can't hold down a song without a metronome.



As far as what WE actually deal with: You have to go with what the band can do. If they can't hold a tempo, give 'em a metronome. If they can't hold a tempo but the trainwreck is even WORSE when they try to concentrate on sticking to a click that they're not used to... you probably have to hang up the metronome and go with what they can give you.

If they CAN hold a tempo AND they can naturally groove to a click, go with what causes the least resistance from the band. Happy band members are productive band members.

 

[grimtraveller]

Yeah....it's OK for musicians to *intentionally* drift from the timing, but the reality of it is that most times, they drift because they’ve lost it!
Then when something is said, everyone always brings up *groove* as a reason for their timing issues, but most often it's the result of 1 guy loosing the timing, which then "pulls" everyone else off.
That's especially true when it's the drummer doing it!

Sure, there are natural spots in certain songs where the band might drag or speed up a tiny bit for effect...but IMO, when it's just a lot of drifting due to sloppy playing/timing...that's not *groove*.

I kind of agree with that. Sometimes, musicians and, I've found, young drummers in particular just aren't listening as they should and often won't take full resposibility for the fact that they frame the song therefore as drums/percussion, rolling round the kit and showing your chops is all very well and throwing in quick time sig changes and whatnot is cute if it comes off but really, solidity and stability is the prime directive.
Anything after that is a bonus, to be striven for, yes, but not at the cost of keeping time. To be honest with you, 'the groove' often means whatever a person wants it to mean, analogous to "It worked because we said it worked " !

 

[miroslav]

If they can't hold a tempo but the trainwreck is even WORSE when they try to concentrate on sticking to a click that they're not used to... you probably have to hang up the metronome and go with what they can give you.

Here's another thing to consider....
Sometimes players don't notice their slop when they are playing...but when they listen to the playback, they sense that something is not right. Who will they blame?
I think ignoring timing issues is a bad way to proceed.
I mean...if you are a musician, and you can't follow a simple click/tap/metronome...something is wrong.
Let’s assume the drummer IS perfect...what happens then if the rest of the players are sloppy?
If they can't follow a click, they will never follow a solid drummer, either.
Additionally, if you are just the guy doing the recording…and then you have to do overdubs and edits…
…who should bear the burden of sloppy timing…you or the players?

I know sometimes the most/best you can do with an iffy session is coax some semblance of a “performance”, and there is a sense of obligation to just go with it...‘cuz they are paying you.
But I can’t see how that will ever add up to anything positive down the road…and chances are, if the finished product is lousy…they will blame you anyway!!!

All I’m saying is that I could not work with a band/artist if they didn’t at least have decent skills…the basic stuff. But if I had to live with or explain lousy timing or out of tune playing or out of key singing…that’s not going to be a happy session, regardless of the $$$.
There are *mistakes* and then there are poor skills...hope they don't expect you to fix the latter.

OK…didn’t mean to go on a mini-rant!

Back to the OP’s question.
Why don’t you just use your MIDI sequencer to create the exact BMPs you need along with the various changes?
The click will follow the MIDI sequence if it is being triggered by it. I've done that in the past.
It shouldn’t be difficult if the song has set parts/changes, that way you CAN have a click even with the changes. Now, if you want to also allow “human error” (drift/sway) during the small transitions between the various time changes…then that will be more difficult to sequence in, but again, someone can call that drift/sway “groove”, others will call it sloppy playing.
Take your pick…it’s all a matter of perspective.

 

[Paulie Jay]

If they can't follow a click, they will never follow a solid drummer, either.

I think that was such a good point that it deserved a repeat.

 

[Farview]

To be honest, I don't mind if it is perceptible as long as it sounds natural. Throw a metronome over Pink Floyd's "Money" an it's all over the place, but the band moves as a unit so it works.

Not really relevant to the OP, of course

Money is played to that loop of the cash registers. All the way up until the part where it goes back into 4/4 time, it is locked to the loop. The loop IS the click track, they just turned it up and down in the mix.

I prefer to use a click, but it is a waste of time trying to get someone who doesn't normally play to one to perform with it.

Playing to a click is a skill that needs to be honed, it takes time and practice. If the drummer hasn't put in the time, it will just throw him off. Or, at the very least, make him think about what he is doing instead of just performing the part naturally.

I'm not sure why you would prefer to use triggers. You will always get a more emotional result with acoustic drums.

 

[Farview]

Yeah that's what I mean. It would be painful to complete a project like that knowing that it would have turned out better if they'd taken your advice. There's more to it than just pushing my personal preferences on others. It could be a perfectly reasonable proffesional opinion.

But I guess to get back to my original topic... For those that do use a click religiously, do you still use it when there's a lot of changes going on? Would you even bother to automate the changes or just go without it?

Just remember that it is their project, not yours. If it sounds good, you did your job.

Yes, I do automate the click. Half the time, the band will come in with a midi file that has the tempo mapped.

 

[noisewreck]

Personally, if there are tempo changes, I have never found tempo automation to be satisfactorily natural. Now, sometimes I DO want unnatural tempo change, and I'll automate it, but when I am going for natural tempo changes, I just play freehand, no click no automation.

I really never understand this "either/or" mentality. There are times when one works better than the other. Dogma is a dangerous thing.