Civil and Respectible

Tremaine

Chancellor of the EOPA
Is this where the Civil and Respectible conversations are supposed to happen, i noticed how often you people use this board, therefore i am forced to assume, Yes.

So, im wondering if anyone around here is into a more spiritual way of living, i personally, and a former wiccan/pagan, now i call myself a 'human being' i assume im correct here, and since i have seen no evidence contrary, i stand by the remark. however i study things that have been labeled as 'occult sciences' witch as far as i can tell, is a name for things that cant be proven threw modren science, for instance: Vibrating to the next demension, talking to ghosts, lucid dreaming, energy symbols, colors/notes/emotions ect...hopfully ending in the illumanation of the worlds consious mind, and the evolution of our sad and pathitic race.

its been a while since i talked to someone new about this shat, just seeing if anyones interested.

Peace World
Tremaine
 
Is this where the Civil and Respectible conversations are supposed to happen, i noticed how often you people use this board, therefore i am forced to assume, Yes.

So, im wondering if anyone around here is into a more spiritual way of living, i personally, and a former wiccan/pagan, now i call myself a 'human being' i assume im correct here, and since i have seen no evidence contrary, i stand by the remark. however i study things that have been labeled as 'occult sciences' witch as far as i can tell, is a name for things that cant be proven threw modren science, for instance: Vibrating to the next demension, talking to ghosts, lucid dreaming, energy symbols, colors/notes/emotions ect...hopfully ending in the illumanation of the worlds consious mind, and the evolution of our sad and pathitic race.

its been a while since i talked to someone new about this shat, just seeing if anyones interested.

Peace World
Tremaine

I can do "civil and respectable".

I also agree that there are many things that can't be proven through modern science.

But I do not support the notion of "occult sciences". Science deals with what can be proved, but more importantly, with what can be disproved. The occult can neither be proved nor disproved, therefore there can be no science of it.

In this sense, your "more spiritual way of living" translates to something like "your less scientific way of living", i.e. it is based on supposition and faith (which, in fact, is what all religions are).

"The evolution of our sad and pathetic race" is a rather dismal view of humanity, and it therefore doesn't surprise me that people with this view would look at alternatives. However, it is a frame of mind, and you can always change a frame of mind.
 
...I also agree that there are many things that can't be proven through modern science.
But I do not support the notion of "occult sciences". Science deals with what can be proved, but more importantly, with what can be disproved. The occult can neither be proved nor disproved, therefore there can be no science of it.


This is true, but there are many things, that were once considered witch craft that are now acceptible, science for example. people with power will always fear the new information <science or tech> that threatens there way of life, and for a time, while they try to crush the rise of the new information, it will be labeled as forbidden, and people who try to support it will be crucified.

occult science is not a trem we use anymore, in society, however if we did, we would have to apply it to any science that is now in the works. but not yet availble for mass consumption. personally im not really intersted in 'new' tech, theres enuff old stuff out there for a life time.

many things have been proven, one way or another, ESP for example. we just have no way of measuring the stream of data, going from one person to another. therefore modern science does not accept this.


...In this sense, your "more spiritual way of living" translates to something like "your less scientific way of living", i.e. it is based on supposition and faith (which, in fact, is what all religions are).

yea, thats true for alot of people. im not into blind faith, theres enuff of that around the world, when i come to something that sounds right, to me, i try to keep an open mind and intergrate it into what i know<think is true>. for the most part i have found that so long as your good, an try not to hurt other people directly/indirectly <keep good karma> and do something productive with you life <that aids society> you can beleave whatever you want. and live well.

..."The evolution of our sad and pathetic race" is a rather dismal view of humanity, and it therefore doesn't surprise me that people with this view would look at alternatives. However, it is a frame of mind, and you can always change a frame of mind.

i shouldnt have said that, in this thread, should have left it at "The evolution of our race. <thou with our intelligence and abilities we should be doing better, imho>
i've always had a point of view that comes accrossed to people as negative, thou it may seem to be such, from inside my mind, i think im just being honest, not sugar coating the truth. No, it hasent made my life any easyer, but i wouldnt be me if i played it any other way. imo.
 
I can do "civil and respectable".

I also agree that there are many things that can't be proven through modern science.

But I do not support the notion of "occult sciences". Science deals with what can be proved, but more importantly, with what can be disproved. The occult can neither be proved nor disproved, therefore there can be no science of it.


hi gecko, the scientific study of the things tre mentioned exists & has for a long time, and right now they are really making progress:eek: check it all out sometime, its really cool.:):D
 
hi gecko, the scientific study of the things tre mentioned exists & has for a long time, and right now they are really making progress:eek: check it all out sometime, its really cool.:):D

deffently cool, even if i cant tap in atm, its still worth investigating, just incase.

peace cant, they dont think im a real person eather.
 
hi gecko, the scientific study of the things tre mentioned exists & has for a long time, and right now they are really making progress:eek: check it all out sometime, its really cool.:):D

Do you have any references to these scientific studies for me to look up?

Tremaine notes that: "many things have been proven, one way or another, ESP for example."

Again, I would like to see the proofs.

It is worthwhile have a read of this:http://www.angelfire.com/nc/Oracle/ESP.html

I've copied the last couple of paragraghs below:

'After all this, in order to understand the nature of the argument that ESP is a matter of faith alone, it is still important to understand just what is necessarry to have a scientific proof of something and furthermore, the difference between matters of science and matters of faith. In order for any theory to be considered scientific, there must be at least one testable hypothesis concerning the theory, and that theory must make accurate predictions concerning the testing of the hypothesis. For example, the theory that what comes up must come down predicts that a dropped bowling ball will hit the ground. That it will hit the ground is also the hypothesis. Testing the hypothesis by dropping the ball will show that it does, indeed, hit the ground. Although most examples are far more complex than this, this example provides a simple outline of the scientific method. One more important note: Any repeat of the test must produce the same results (i.e. if anyone else drops the bowling ball, it must hit the ground then as well.)

'Thus, in order for ESP to be a matter of science, there must be a testable hypothesis concerning the theory. There are several, none of which, however, are as simplistically observed as the bowling ball. The primary hypothesis behind the ganzfeld tests is that ESP abilities are hightened under states of sensory deprivation. As yet, there are no repeatable ganzfeld tests which have produced results which coincide with the predictions made by the theory behind ESP. Yet support for this phenomenon exists, even after decades of scientific research has failed to support it. It seems that, as William Grey says "However we characterize the scientific method, the defenders of Psi claim that the currently accepted methods of inquiry are too limitied." (146) Since ESP was introduced 60 years ago, there has not been a single accepted test which demonstrates its existence (Krauss 52). Says Grey: "Parapsychological . . . experiences are real enough; what is in dispute is how they are best explained" (144). This is an important point to consider. Does a lack of scientific proof disprove something’s existence? The majority of the earth’s population which believes in the existence of God and the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad Ignorantium both say no. Then if six decades of experiments have failed to accurately demonstrate the existence of ESP, there are two reasons that could have caused that failure. The first is the simplest: ESP does not exist. The second is that any explanation of ESP transcends science. That is, ESP becomes a matter of faith in the same class as God, angels, and other spiritual matters. This may be asserted because of the logical rules of alternatives: if not one thing, then another. That is to say if something can not be asserted by the empirical use of the scientific method, then it must be either non-existent, or a matter of faith. The popularity of the phenomena of ESP seems to make at least some argument for its existence, even if its not a scientifically sound one. Thus, rather than not existing at all, ESP likely belongs in that category of human experience which does not relate to science at all, but to personal faith; its existence a matter of the heart, rather than the labratory.'

If Greg L reads and asks for a summary, it is this:

"ESP does not seem to be able to be proven scientifically".
 
Do you have any references to these scientific studies for me to look up?

Tremaine notes that: "many things have been proven, one way or another, ESP for example."

Again, I would like to see the proofs.

It is worthwhile have a read of this:http://www.angelfire.com/nc/Oracle/ESP.html

I've copied the last couple of paragraghs below:

'After all this, in order to understand the nature of the argument that ESP is a matter of faith alone, it is still important to understand just what is necessarry to have a scientific proof of something and furthermore, the difference between matters of science and matters of faith. In order for any theory to be considered scientific, there must be at least one testable hypothesis concerning the theory, and that theory must make accurate predictions concerning the testing of the hypothesis. For example, the theory that what comes up must come down predicts that a dropped bowling ball will hit the ground. That it will hit the ground is also the hypothesis. Testing the hypothesis by dropping the ball will show that it does, indeed, hit the ground. Although most examples are far more complex than this, this example provides a simple outline of the scientific method. One more important note: Any repeat of the test must produce the same results (i.e. if anyone else drops the bowling ball, it must hit the ground then as well.)

'Thus, in order for ESP to be a matter of science, there must be a testable hypothesis concerning the theory. There are several, none of which, however, are as simplistically observed as the bowling ball. The primary hypothesis behind the ganzfeld tests is that ESP abilities are hightened under states of sensory deprivation. As yet, there are no repeatable ganzfeld tests which have produced results which coincide with the predictions made by the theory behind ESP. Yet support for this phenomenon exists, even after decades of scientific research has failed to support it. It seems that, as William Grey says "However we characterize the scientific method, the defenders of Psi claim that the currently accepted methods of inquiry are too limitied." (146) Since ESP was introduced 60 years ago, there has not been a single accepted test which demonstrates its existence (Krauss 52). Says Grey: "Parapsychological . . . experiences are real enough; what is in dispute is how they are best explained" (144). This is an important point to consider. Does a lack of scientific proof disprove something’s existence? The majority of the earth’s population which believes in the existence of God and the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad Ignorantium both say no. Then if six decades of experiments have failed to accurately demonstrate the existence of ESP, there are two reasons that could have caused that failure. The first is the simplest: ESP does not exist. The second is that any explanation of ESP transcends science. That is, ESP becomes a matter of faith in the same class as God, angels, and other spiritual matters. This may be asserted because of the logical rules of alternatives: if not one thing, then another. That is to say if something can not be asserted by the empirical use of the scientific method, then it must be either non-existent, or a matter of faith. The popularity of the phenomena of ESP seems to make at least some argument for its existence, even if its not a scientifically sound one. Thus, rather than not existing at all, ESP likely belongs in that category of human experience which does not relate to science at all, but to personal faith; its existence a matter of the heart, rather than the labratory.'

If Greg L reads and asks for a summary, it is this:

"ESP does not seem to be able to be proven scientifically".

thanks gek, i'll try to post them sometime this week:) btw, i checked out your website last night and found something you wrote, (i think it was you, but it had a different name by it but it was on your page)(i liked it alot) it reminded me of a video, but i won't post it unless you say you don't mind.
 
deffently cool, even if i cant tap in atm, its still worth investigating, just incase.

peace cant, they dont think im a real person eather.


i don't recall us ever being at war, and 'they' can shove a bottle of red hot chili peppers straight up their asses with a turbo jet power igniter attatched.

have a nice day:):D
 
hi gek, just wanted to say it actually goes against my grain to talk about all this, at least on forums in depth etc, not that it matters if anyone else does, its just not me.

but i'll pm you the stuff i said i would.

thanks
 
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