best way to retain high end?

Sillyhat said:
... I'm shaking my head in disbelief.
Do you mean like THEM ?
ahhh... for what it's worth:
Your entire "hippie vs. establishment" plug (analogy) is missing the point.
If I am "against" something here (or better say: questioning something) - it is Herd Behavior. But I am not really against it, personally, I think it's ok to live sheep life, as long as it's a personal choice. It's O.K.
What is not O.K. is when Sheep Life claims or actually gets status of Establishment, and then a sheep acts and bleats like it represents the Word of The Lion.
Nop. I'm not questioning The Lion. I can't do that, even if I wish, simply because there's no Lion. "Sheeppies" and "ewies" are there, though.... :D

As for hippies and analogies, I can tell this...
Hippies of 60s/70s was same (similar) thing as Room-Auralexing of nowdays. No surprize, that Auralex starts its introduction with Bible "interpretation" and ends up with variety of bright colors, shapes and patterns (so here's Johnny )

/respects
***********
p.s.
Yo! Steve! I like the way you thinkin'! heh heh :D funny
O.k.... I don't know what to say.... there are many ways to spin and twist here .... Let's me try to pretend that I'm a strictly technical-head:
"This ain't no damn tag! It's the damn counter. And thanks God it keeps ticking. You've missed the moment in time." :D :D :D :D
 
FALKEN said:
hey all,

I am going to start a new recording project this weekend. I think one of the main differences between one of my mixes and a mix I hear on the radio is that my mixes seem to lose high end and have low mid buildup. these two aspecs probably compound each other. This question could have easily gone in the "recording techniques" forum or similar, but since our aesthetics are similar I thought I would post here. What have you done in order to solve this problem that plagues home studios?

Try recording a quick song using ONLY direct sounds (no room sound at all)

Record a drum machine
record an electric guitar
maybe some keyboards and vocals up close to the mic.

Mix it and see if you have the same problem.

If you have good balanced highs and lows, then it is your recording room acoustics.

If you have the same problem, it is your monitoring room acoustics.

Diagnosing is easy, fixing is more work and $$$

Good Luck.
 
Dr ZEE said:
Your entire "hippie vs. establishment" plug (analogy) is missing the point.
If I am "against" something here (or better say: questioning something) - it is Herd Behavior.
Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it a bad idea. For example: Breathing and eating. Everyone does it, but it doesn't fall into the herd mentality concept.

Auralex has a nausiating sales pitch but their product does do what it says it does. However, it is up to you to find out what you need and how to apply it to get the results. If you don't do the research or don't, at least minimally, understand the concepts, you will spend a lot of money to make things worse. That doesn't make Auralex (or acoustic treatment in general) good or bad.

The bottom line is: if your room has a null at 150Hz at the mix position, there is no way to compensate for it in the mix, because you can't hear it. It's just not there. Moving your head a few inches might get you out of that null, but deposit you in another one.

The only real flaw in your argument about 'mixing in an environment that nobody has' is: You are always mixing in an environment that nobody else has. My living room doesn't sound like yours, things don't sound the same in any of my 4 cars. You can't worry about the listeners environment, you have no control over it and you can't predict what it will be. So you make your mixing environment such that you know you can hear everything somewhat evenly.
 
Sillyhat,

something tells me that Zee is going to keep arguing with this notion no matter what. you can keep on re-stating the obvious but what is the point?? the guy does dub music. auralex or not it still "needs more bass mon". Why don't I just pass this blizznit around so we can all hear the bass a little better...
 
Sillyhat said:
Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it a bad idea. For example: Breathing and eating. Everyone does it, but it doesn't fall into the herd mentality concept...
Herd Behavior is not about doing what, but about doing what ever identically where the way of doing is determined by NO other reason/mean but the fact that every body does it that way.
You can (scfi-theoretically :) ) connect your ears with your mixer's output and do it that way. This is fine. If You think it is the best way to accomplish the task - that's fine. I would argue, however, if you are going to say that this is THE only and the best way to do it period.
The way I see it - the TASK is to create a mix for REAL audience to enjoy. You may think, or feel, or be sure from your own experience that it is easier or better to do it if during creative process you monitor "mixer's output" with no environment interfierence. But I personally don't think so, don't feel that way and, from my personal experience, during creative process it is better to monitor "mixer's output" while allowing environment interfierence. For me it IS the easier way to accomplish the task. I've said, "easier way" ..yeah, well, I have to add that imho, there's no easy way to make GREAT mix. Following instructions may be is easy, but I don't see how any instruction can lead anyone to a Great mix. Obviously, I do not see mixing as "technician's job". Wireing IS technician's job, - mixing IS NOT. Making sure that the gear powers up - IS, selecting the gear is not. Knowing how to adjust a parameter - is, actually adjusting it is not. etc...

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
Obviously, I do not see mixing as "technician's job". Wireing IS technician's job, - mixing IS NOT. Making sure that the gear powers up - IS, selecting the gear is not. Knowing how to adjust a parameter - is, actually adjusting it is not. etc...
So, we agree?
 
FALKEN said:
the guy does dub music. auralex or not it still "needs more bass mon"....
Falken, and what do you do?
Ahhhh! I remember.... I recall, - you make radio-hits.
o.k.

/later
 
Dr ZEE said:
Falken, and what do you do?
Ahhhh! I remember.... I recall, - you make radio-hits.
o.k.

/later

Dr. Zee,

you need to stop taking offense. I was kidding man!!!! I am sorry if you were offended. and no, no "radio hits" for me. I actually try to make music that is the exact opposite of what is usually considered "radio hits", by breaking down most of the constructs that define pop music today. Not to say that I wouldn't appreciate being on the radio; because that would necessitate a major change in current trend, which would be just fine with me!!!
 
FALKEN said:
Dr. Zee,

you need to stop taking offense.!!!
Offense? No! No offence.
You say something - I reply. That all.
yeah, I kinda got tired of inserting these guys :D :D :D :D Sometimes I just don't feel like inserting, not to mention that I really don't have to.

yeah, I could ignore and not to reply. I do it to. Notice that I DID ignore your "you can keep on re-stating the obvious but what is the point??" line. Since it's all "obvious" for you, then there REALLY NO point to reply/respond/share view/opinion/experience/confusion/thoughts/what-have-you in respect to what ever your "question", or "problem" or "situation" may be.
So no offense here at all or anything of that nature, - The Sun is warm, the sky is blue and clear, the water is still, Flamingos are Flying In Peace
;)
 
Dr ZEE said:
So, we agree what?
We agree that wiring is a tech job, mixing is not, etc...

However, 'where did my high end go?' and 'why is there so much lower midrange?' and 'why do my mixes sound muddy on other systems?' are tech qhestions, not artistic/political/religous ones.
 
Sillyhat said:
'where did my high end go?' and 'why is there so much lower midrange?' and 'why do my mixes sound muddy on other systems?' are tech qhestions, not artistic/political/religous ones.
I don't know if I should be serious here or what... I really don't know.

but, let me try, what the hell....
If! to take any one of those "three" questions seriously, then they are most definetly not technical. They are actually rather closer to be political or religious than being technical. :p But what they really are - these questions are quintessentially moronic :D
First of all in general there is absolutely no way to give any real answere to such questions in technical terms.

"Where did my high end go?" - is this a technical question? You gotta be kidding.

"why is there so much lower midrange?"
Lower midrange? So much? Where? Doing what? Recording/mixing what?, what equipment? yada yada..... What does it mean "Too much" How much is too much? To get to the bottom of it (the the bottom of the actual specific situation) so, to be able to even guess of some sort of technical answer to a such question you'd have to ask the whole bunch of other question...and even after that you still will have very distorted picture what exactly "too much lower midrange" may "sound" like in that specific mix/situation inside the head! of a person who asked the question. And if you go through the trouble to sort of getting to the bottom of it - the issue may actually turn out to be anything from a simple eq-knob-twist through a specific or very broad philosophical/artistic/what-have-you view/approach.
If somebody say: "I've noticed too much of midrange in my mixes" - I personally have no f*ng idea what it may be like exactly. These are just pretty much empty words. Discussing something like this and pretending that you are having some sort of serious technical conversation, giving serious technical advice and solving something is pretty pathetic. But at least it would be just a making-no-difference blah-blah, nothing more harmful than that.
But! Advising a guy with a such question to go and visit Auralex Website/Store - would be a real act of speaking out of your ass. That's what I CALL - irresponsible. (Excuse me, my french'here... :D)

but, then, again... OK, let's say you do advise a guy to "Auralex-The-Room", then do responsibly:
-Don't say you MUST do it. Say you can try it.
-Don't say it will improve your room's acoustics. Say it may. Also say it will definitely change your room's acoustics, and the result actually may suck. And one thing for sure - you will have to take time to get used to it in case you've already have collected some listening/mixing experience in your current room with your current setup. (btw, May I remind you: listening/mixing experience is THE REAL and ONLY treasure for any serious music producer! And such experience is strongly tied with equipment/environment. Losing/changing equipemt and/or environment is very close to practically losing the entire mixing/listening experience.)
-Don't say it will help you to make better mixes. Say - in case if all above will work out positively - you will MAYBE have a more productive environment in respect to specifics of your production (such as specific musical genre, taste, whethe the producer produces his/her own material or working on other artist's material, specifics of targeted audience (i.e. music for computer videogames, on-line/mp3s, CD-album, Dance-Club, radio-play, background music etc etc you name it)
**********
>>>>>>>>
-Q: 'why do my mixes sound muddy on other systems?'
-A: thake your 'other systems' out'a mud.

again, that if you REALLY seriously take a such question. And I seriously mean it. :D

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
But what they really are - these questions are quintessentially moronic :D
One of those was the question at the begining of the thread.

(and I meant too much lower midrange in my mixes, I was typing too fast, like the last couple of lines in your post)

Anyway, I disagree. If you had a good amount of high end, and it disappeared, there is a technical reason for it. If you got rid of it on purpose, it would be an artistic choice.

The artistic statement would be, 'there is too much lower mid'. Twisting the EQ knob to fix it is technical. The desision to use the EQ to fix it instead of other methods is artistic.

Your desisions are artistic, the result of your desisions is technical. (the reason it comes together the way it does)
 
Well, the original question/title of this thread is sooooooooo broad .... it's almost abstract :D
The original question combined with the original post is about the same broad and is opene to the whole variety of aspects. The author made reference to comparing what he hears on the radio, which opens even more directions for guessing what "the problem" here can be. "Point finger to the sky - and find a "starting point" sort of speak situation. You can link the endless list of various technical and non-technical issues to it - and have fun discussing it.

Technical questions/issues are specific. If the question does not contain any specifics (or , say, does not contain enough specifics), then there can not be any REAL technical discussion.

Let's see, example:
"I record my mix and It does not have enough high-end. What can be wrong?"
- this is not a technical question. It can be. But it is not as it is. You can guess what it may be about... but you don't really know.

"I've recorded some instrumental rock tune (guitar, bass, acoustic drums and some back-synth). When I do my mixdown everything sounds pretty good (all instruments in the mix sound nice and the way I like, it has nice cutting through guitar lead, I like the way hi-hats sound in the mix etc...) I record stereo-mix on two-track cassette deck. When I play the tape back it sounds like the mix lost some high-end (like, hi-hats are almost gone). Any suggestions what can be wrong?"
- this is a technical question.

Technical questions CAN have specific correct technical answers/solutions. You locate the technical problem first. After you locate the problem - there can be one correct solution how to fix it. It DOES have the RIGHT answer. Sometimes, a specific technical issue may be corrected in more than just one (correct) way or by a combination, however, the "target" (or the parameter) is specified and clearly defined, so even though, there maybe more than one "answer" to the question, but technically they are just variations of the same actions (available actions with the similar or identical effect/result).
Any situation where a single very specific technical issue/parameter can not be identified and AGREED upon can not really be discussed techinally.
Examples:
"I am trying to record some sounds which are sometimes way too quiet and sometimes are very very loud. What kind of gear can I use to be able to record these sounds so I get the quiet sounds a bit louder and so when the sounds get very loud my recorder does not get overload clip? I am trying to record my neighbour behind the wall at night while I am not home, so the device has to be automatic . " - this is technical question.

"I play bass. I want my bass to sound nice, punchy and cool. Can I use compressor? What is the best compressor you can recommend to achieve my goal?" - this is not technical question, even though it sounds like it is :D

...ok

ohhhhhh,

"I want to make great music at my own studio. What do I need to buy?" - this is MOST NOT a technical question :D (and you hardly get any good answer if you ask)

"I wish I could make my own music which sucks. What do I need to buy.?" - this IS very technical question. :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: (and if you ask - you will receive endless list full of great tips, advice and even free how-to-directions.)

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
"I play bass. I want my bass to sound nice, punchy and cool. Can I use compressor? What is the best compressor you can recommend to achieve my goal?" - this is not technical question, even though it sounds like it is :D
If, by your definition, this is not a technical question, that still doesn't make it an artistic one. It's just incomplete.
 
Dr ZEE said:
p.s.
Yo! Steve! I like the way you thinkin'! heh heh :D funny
O.k.... I don't know what to say.... there are many ways to spin and twist here .... Let's me try to pretend that I'm a strictly technical-head:
"This ain't no damn tag! It's the damn counter. And thanks God it keeps ticking. You've missed the moment in time." :D :D :D :D


Is this really the "last page" of this thread, or is that a big lie as well?? :mad: :p :rolleyes: ;)
 
Dr ZEE said:
I don't know if I should be serious here or what... I really don't know.

but, let me try, what the hell....
If! to take any one of those "three" questions seriously, then they are most definetly not technical. They are actually rather closer to be political or religious than being technical. :p But what they really are - these questions are quintessentially moronic :D
First of all in general there is absolutely no way to give any real answere to such questions in technical terms.

"Where did my high end go?" - is this a technical question? You gotta be kidding.

"why is there so much lower midrange?"
Lower midrange? So much? Where? Doing what? Recording/mixing what?, what equipment? yada yada..... What does it mean "Too much" How much is too much? To get to the bottom of it (the the bottom of the actual specific situation) so, to be able to even guess of some sort of technical answer to a such question you'd have to ask the whole bunch of other question...and even after that you still will have very distorted picture what exactly "too much lower midrange" may "sound" like in that specific mix/situation inside the head! of a person who asked the question. And if you go through the trouble to sort of getting to the bottom of it - the issue may actually turn out to be anything from a simple eq-knob-twist through a specific or very broad philosophical/artistic/what-have-you view/approach.
If somebody say: "I've noticed too much of midrange in my mixes" - I personally have no f*ng idea what it may be like exactly. These are just pretty much empty words. Discussing something like this and pretending that you are having some sort of serious technical conversation, giving serious technical advice and solving something is pretty pathetic. But at least it would be just a making-no-difference blah-blah, nothing more harmful than that.
But! Advising a guy with a such question to go and visit Auralex Website/Store - would be a real act of speaking out of your ass. That's what I CALL - irresponsible. (Excuse me, my french'here... :D)

but, then, again... OK, let's say you do advise a guy to "Auralex-The-Room", then do responsibly:
-Don't say you MUST do it. Say you can try it.
-Don't say it will improve your room's acoustics. Say it may. Also say it will definitely change your room's acoustics, and the result actually may suck. And one thing for sure - you will have to take time to get used to it in case you've already have collected some listening/mixing experience in your current room with your current setup. (btw, May I remind you: listening/mixing experience is THE REAL and ONLY treasure for any serious music producer! And such experience is strongly tied with equipment/environment. Losing/changing equipemt and/or environment is very close to practically losing the entire mixing/listening experience.)
-Don't say it will help you to make better mixes. Say - in case if all above will work out positively - you will MAYBE have a more productive environment in respect to specifics of your production (such as specific musical genre, taste, whethe the producer produces his/her own material or working on other artist's material, specifics of targeted audience (i.e. music for computer videogames, on-line/mp3s, CD-album, Dance-Club, radio-play, background music etc etc you name it)
**********
>>>>>>>>
-Q: 'why do my mixes sound muddy on other systems?'
-A: thake your 'other systems' out'a mud.

again, that if you REALLY seriously take a such question. And I seriously mean it. :D

/respects


Just give up. You make no sense.
 
couple more things... what the hell.

Sillyhat said:
You can't worry about the listeners environment...
Yes you can. Not to say that you have to. Not to say that you need to. Not to say that you must.
Sillyhat said:
... you have no control over it (audience listeners environment that is) and you can't predict what it will be...
I see no need nor desire in controling listeners' environment. I DO however believe that it's a good idea for a producer to KNOW his/her audience very well (in and out) or better say: to remain! being part of it.
Also, I would add here, in general: seeking CONTROL over every aspect within the production process maybe is the way to go, and it seems to be the most popular way, but it is NOT the only way.
You may view The Control Room as the place to control things, but I view it as a place to lose IT (control, that is) to do things.
***********
Sillyhat said:
If, by your definition, this is not a technical question, that still doesn't make it an artistic one. It's just incomplete.
There's No such thing as incomplete question. There are only incomplete answers.
I don't have problems with incomplete answers. What I do have problems sometimes with is - absolutism of such answers. (Especially when it comes to such areas of life like art).
I mean, giving an answer or offering an opinion is one thing, claiming The Crown for it - is another.
But what the hell.... since we are here in The Virtual Reality, why not?!!! This can be arranged - piece of cake, just finger-click three times and you've got it.
Here. I 've managed to hire Sir Ian Holm to mess up The Play's character lines and make Johnny's dreams come true.
Oh, who is Johnny?
No, not that Johnny . Johnny I am refering here is that anonymous smart a$s, sending me "You just don't get it." notes. I hope he does not mind me calling him Johnny. It's a good name. :)
O.K., Johnny, here's a free Play for you in two acts:
 

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