Audio Black List Coming Soon

[rob aylestone]

They're stupid - why is it anyone's business apart from the people involved. If you record music, and get paid, why don't you do it for half what you could get?

At least it's not just me who think this is simply wasted energy. Idiots buy things for more than they are worth. However, I bet everyone reading this has bought something at a higher ticket price for convenience. You decide if it's worth it, you buy it, you enjoy it. Checking afterwards and discovering you paid too much makes you sad. I've done it. Set it aside and enjoy it.

Starting a campaign to prevent idiots buying without thinking is futile!

 

[lonewhitefly]

They're stupid - why is it anyone's business apart from the people involved. If you record music, and get paid, why don't you do it for half what you could get?

At least it's not just me who think this is simply wasted energy. Idiots buy things for more than they are worth. However, I bet everyone reading this has bought something at a higher ticket price for convenience. You decide if it's worth it, you buy it, you enjoy it. Checking afterwards and discovering you paid too much makes you sad. I've done it. Set it aside and enjoy it.

Starting a campaign to prevent idiots buying without thinking is futile!

I agree with you in the sense that it's a free market, and people can do as they choose.

Just the sellers have the freedom to charge what they wish, and the buyers have the freedom to pay what they are willing to ... the communities affected by these transactions also have the freedom to create a site listing artificially inflated pricing.

While these practices are probably not technically illegal, they are somewhat similar (on a smaller scale) to concepts like price fixing and monopolies:

Price fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Monopoly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, it's sort of artificially controlling a free market, which makes it not all that 'free'.

Maybe I should buy every single reel of Scotch 202 that comes up on eBay, craigslist, etc (anywhere I can find), regardless of the cost (usually $5-$10 per reel) then start up an online shop (or eBay shop) where I sell every 7" reel for $100 each, then anyone who wants to use this tape is forced to buy at my price if they want this niche product. I could also go on online forums under various aliases and talk about how great 202 is, and how you need this specific tape to get a specific sound.

What do you think of my plan?

 

[miroslav]

Basically, it's sort of artificially controlling a free market, which makes it not all that 'free'.

Only if you feel compelled.....or forced....to buy at the seller's prices.
I don't see that anyone is forced to buy anything on eBay or Craigslist.
The price of listings on eBay that are open acutions....are purely driven by the buyers. So if a bunch of people drive up the final price because they feel compelled to all try and buy it at any cost.....mmmmmm, who's fault is that?

I got no love for eBay for a lot of reaons...and I also do agree that some sellers are liars, cheats, and just looking to rip people off, and for those, a "Black List" might be a good kick in the ass.....but I don't see that anyone is forced to pay high prices or that a seller should be slammed purely for his asking price.
I mean....yeah....some asking prices are really stupid, but I think anyone that pays them is even more stupid.

Basically if everyone is charging the same high price for item XYZ....and people are buying it at that price, then it really is a market driven thing.
I mean, look at housing.....prices went crazy, because people were willing to pay them. Then when everyone stopped buying, prices dropped lower than original value.

I think some people feel that buyers should always get things at some "agreed upon and approved" lower price....and that anything higher is somehow automatically the seller's fault, and an attempt to cheat buyers.
Supply & demand.....that's what drives prices.
No demand = low prices.....lots of buyers = higher prices.
That's the free market.

 

[lonewhitefly]

Only if you feel compelled.....or forced....to buy at the seller's prices.
Supply & demand.....that's what drives prices.
No demand = low prices.....lots of buyers = higher prices.
That's the free market.

The actual 'supply' is being tampered with by the seller(s) though.

If there are 5 Shure M68-RM reverb mixers on eBay at any given time, typically selling for around $20-$50, and you buy them all with the express purpose of selling them for $460 (yes, four hundred-sixty dollars!) each, one at a time, you are artificially controlling the free market of this particular niche in a sense.

Then the situation becomes one where other sellers see that this is the 'going rate', and charge 'only' $200 ... the seller trying to control the martket will not buy them at this rate, so this one becomes the 'deal'. Sure, maybe no one will buy them at these prices, but all it takes is one or two folks who really want one, and the item is now 'worth' 10 times what it was before the other seller artificially inflated the price.

This sounds ludicrous but it is happening. So, I think it's totally valid for these practices to be documented somehow. Spring reverbs in general have about quadrupled in price over the last few years, and I don't think it's solely based on legit supply and demand. I've been on both the buying and selling side, so I think I can understand both viewpoints fairly well (in fact, I have one for sale on eBay currently -- yes indeed, quite a bit higher than I sold one for a couple years back ... but not obscene and crazy! Just a fair markup based on market value and eBay trends).

I'm not saying, 'hey that's not fair! I want my deals of the past!' ... just saying that these are shady practices that affect more than individual buyers and sellers.

 

[rob aylestone]

You could, but you can also end up with a pile of expensive stock that won't sell. It's a gamble. I'm sitting on 20 mics that were my best seller, until one of the big boys bought the same product from the manufacturer and rebranded it at ten pounds less than I sell for. I could sell them below cost to clear, or hang on.

As for artificially controlling the market, if it was something that is a necessity, like food, or medicine, them I can understand people being upset, but frankly the only people who get cross about a mixer going for too much money are those desperately seeking a bargain. If people didn't buy them for inflated prices, then the opportunity to make a few quid goes away. It seems a bit selfish to want somebody else to turn away the chance for profit because you want a bargain. Prices are what the market will stand, nothing more.

I found a seller selling a really good piece of unusual kit for silly money so me and a friend of mine bought all he had. Not to resell, but for a project we were doing. At some point they will go back on eBay for at least five times what we paid because they are still a bargain at that price.

I bought a bass guitar on eBay for silly money because the seller was clueless and his description sounded like a twenty pound fix, which it was. If I sold it on and made a hefty profit is that bad?

Of course it works against me too, I want a hard drive recorder for a video camera, and they're all far to expensive, so I'm still waiting, but I don't look at the sellers and complain.

The idea for a black list is good for fraudulent sellers but not simply for ones good at business!

 

[miroslav]

As for artificially controlling the market, if it was something that is a necessity, like food, or medicine, them I can understand people being upset, but frankly the only people who get cross about a mixer going for too much money are those desperately seeking a bargain. If people didn't buy them for inflated prices, then the opportunity to make a few quid goes away. It seems a bit selfish to want somebody else to turn away the chance for profit because you want a bargain. Prices are what the market will stand, nothing more.

Right....that's all I was saying too.

 

[Rod Norman]

Thanks for providing this service. I hope people will be able to get access to it easily. When I post items on eBay now, I post them at the price I paid for the kit (styrene models) and the buyers get the assembly and painting for free. Still, a lot of people seem to be looking for things at far less than the kit price. Some watch the item and try to dive in at the last minute to get it at the listed price. I gave up a long time ago trying to get people to bid against each other. Now if they want it, the bottom starting price is what I would be happy with. I know what you mean about items worth far less being offered for far more. The guys at Pawn Stars in Las Vegas always have to remind people that the eBay price is the asking price, not what they are getting for it.
Rod Norman
Engineer

Audio Black List Coming Soon

A little project I’ve been working on about to be launched.

The site will primarily feature eBay sellers listing overpriced gear, tape, bad tape, pirated software, and/or high shipping costs. The eBay feedback system is broken. This project is born out of a need to give potential buyers the real scoop.

Flowerpot guy is at the top of the list of course. I’ve been in contact with several music recording and audiophile oriented sites that are getting on board. Look for the link on a music forum near you by end of summer, starting with HR. For now I’ll be reviewing submissions, and they’ll have to be pretty far out there to make the black list. For example:

One Maxell XLI 35-90B 1/4" $75.00
Seller ID: fun2offeru
Maxell XLI 35 90B 1 4" New Original Tape SEALED for ReVox Akai | eBay

Two Maxell UD 35-90 1/4" $99.00
Seller ID: mrs_girlock
2 Maxell UD 35 90 Reel to Reel Tapes 1 New SEALED 1 Used | eBay

One New TDK SA90 Cassette Tape $41.99
Seller ID: cool_stuff_san_diego
TDK SA 90 Chrome Blank Cassette Tape High Bias New | eBay

Five SEALED quantegy grand master gold 499 1/4" X 7" Reel $249.99
Seller ID: recordcollector64
5 SEALED Quantegy Grand Master Gold 499 Never Used Reel to Reel Audio Tape | eBay

Two Quantegy 456 Grand Master 1/4" X 7" Reel $169.00
Seller ID: stevekom2
Quantegy 456 Grand Master 1/4" Reel to Reel Tape - 2 Reels In New Sealed Boxes

One Quantegy 456 1/4" X 7" Reel $99.00
Seller ID: eurasiagh
Quantegy 456 1 4" NIB Reel to Reel Tape | eBay

eBay’s policy of allowing free listings without limits has made it rough on buyers. Sellers have been pushing the limits because they can, but it’s been pushing prices ever higher over the years since new sellers use current prices on eBay as reference. We have to stop this insanity. Sellers will also be contacted and informed they have been put on the Audio Black List and the reasons why. In the mean time feel free to contact sellers with these ridiculously high prices and let them know (in a nice way) why you won't buy from them. The more feedback they get through the contact seller form the better.

Beck

 

[Gunadoo]

You made me LAUGH.
We call him POTHEAD!
He must be stoned to charge those prices, Ha'!!!

 

[lonewhitefly]

You could, but you can also end up with a pile of expensive stock that won't sell. It's a gamble. I'm sitting on 20 mics that were my best seller, until one of the big boys bought the same product from the manufacturer and rebranded it at ten pounds less than I sell for. I could sell them below cost to clear, or hang on.

As for artificially controlling the market, if it was something that is a necessity, like food, or medicine, them I can understand people being upset, but frankly the only people who get cross about a mixer going for too much money are those desperately seeking a bargain. If people didn't buy them for inflated prices, then the opportunity to make a few quid goes away. It seems a bit selfish to want somebody else to turn away the chance for profit because you want a bargain. Prices are what the market will stand, nothing more.

I found a seller selling a really good piece of unusual kit for silly money so me and a friend of mine bought all he had. Not to resell, but for a project we were doing. At some point they will go back on eBay for at least five times what we paid because they are still a bargain at that price.

I bought a bass guitar on eBay for silly money because the seller was clueless and his description sounded like a twenty pound fix, which it was. If I sold it on and made a hefty profit is that bad?

Of course it works against me too, I want a hard drive recorder for a video camera, and they're all far to expensive, so I'm still waiting, but I don't look at the sellers and complain.

The idea for a black list is good for fraudulent sellers but not simply for ones good at business!

There's little risk in holding onto the merchandise when you bought it at the previous 'normal' market rate ... all you'd have to do is sell one of them at your new rate to profit. Worst case scenario is you unload them for what you paid.

No one is talking about whether this is food, medicine or audio gear -- the concept is the same. Whether you care about it or not is your own business. It certainly isn't about 'hey I want my deals of the past!', it's about opportunistic sellers trying to profit from a niche community, the existence of which is potentially threatened by sellers like this.

There are 'chances for profit' anywhere you look if you have loose morals. Why not sell gullible senior citizens unneeded insurance? Perfectly legal, but that doesn't mean that concerned citizens shouldn't start a website listing known 'bad insurance' companies.

Nothing wrong with buying something, then flipping it for a quick, reasonable and fair profit. I've done it many times and will do it again if a chance comes up. I once found about 10 reels of 10.5" Maxell metal reel tapes at a thrift shop for $0.75 ea. Of course I bought them all. I didn't need them, so I sold them at starting bids of around $15/reel ... some sold for $20 or more. You could even say that I 'rescued' the tapes from getting trashed in this shop (it was one of the Goodwill 'bins') and brought them to people who will treasure them and use them.

This is not what I'm talking about ... making an honest (even very large) profit.

 

[miroslav]

.... opportunistic sellers trying to profit from a niche community.....

.....


Nothing wrong with buying something, then flipping it for a quick, reasonable and fair profit. I've done it many times and will do it again if a chance comes up. I once found about 10 reels of 10.5" Maxell metal reel tapes at a thrift shop for $0.75 ea. Of course I bought them all. I didn't need them, so I sold them at starting bids of around $15/reel ... some sold for $20 or more. You could even say that I 'rescued' the tapes from getting trashed in this shop (it was one of the Goodwill 'bins') and brought them to people who will treasure them and use them.

This is not what I'm talking about ... making an honest (even very large) profit.

Hey...don't get me wrong, I got nothing against you, we're all cool here in Analog Forum land.
I wouldn't have any problem if your auctions sold for $50/tape if that's what people were willing to pay for them.
However, some could say the same thing about your transactions....that you were "opportunistic" and sold them at a 2000% profit.
See what I mean....it's all how you want to look at things. I mean, who on the outside looking in, can say what a "fair price" is between a seller and a buyer if they both agree on it....?

Also....that fact that tape and old consumer and pro-sumer analog gear IS a very niche market as you said, prices do tend to swing all over the place, some due to nostalgic perspectives that have little to do with actual item "value".
You take something like say, a Neumann U87....there's no real wild price swings, and over the years, there has been somewhat stable and steady pricing for them on the used market.
I think it's the "niche" aspect that creates extreme swings and crazy bidding wars, only to sometimes see the same exact stuff being practically given away or found at very low prices....like your $0.75/tape.

Sorry...I just can't see how "exposing" guys (who do the same thing you did, buy low/sell high) as some sort of cheats....as some valid undertaking, and IMO,iIt would be the same thing in reverse...one person or group trying to dictate to others what "fair" pricing is.
The ones who intentionally misrepresent ("one pass tape", "worked last time it was on", didn't have a power cord to see if it powers up"...etc, etc), and then fool people, on top of making them pay a high price.....that's different.
For them, I hope Beck's website "Black List" completely de-balls them and leaves them holding all that crap they are trying to pass off as something that it isn't.

I'm curious to see how it all plays out once the list is active....

 

[lonewhitefly]

Hey...don't get me wrong, I got nothing against you, we're all cool here in Analog Forum land.
I wouldn't have any problem if your auctions sold for $50/tape if that's what people were willing to pay for them.
However, some could say the same thing about your transactions....that you were "opportunistic" and sold them at a 2000% profit.
See what I mean....it's all how you want to look at things. I mean, who on the outside looking in, can say what a "fair price" is between a seller and a buyer if they both agree on it....?

Also....that fact that tape and old consumer and pro-sumer analog gear IS a very niche market as you said, prices do tend to swing all over the place, some due to nostalgic perspectives that have little to do with actual item "value".
You take something like say, a Neumann U87....there's no real wild price swings, and over the years, there has been somewhat stable and steady pricing for them on the used market.
I think it's the "niche" aspect that creates extreme swings and crazy bidding wars, only to sometimes see the same exact stuff being practically given away or found at very low prices....like your $0.75/tape.

Sorry...I just can't see how "exposing" guys (who do the same thing you did, buy low/sell high) as some sort of cheats....as some valid undertaking, and IMO,iIt would be the same thing in reverse...one person or group trying to dictate to others what "fair" pricing is.
The ones who intentionally misrepresent ("one pass tape", "worked last time it was on", didn't have a power cord to see if it powers up"...etc, etc), and then fool people, on top of making them pay a high price.....that's different.
For them, I hope Beck's website "Black List" completely de-balls them and leaves them holding all that crap they are trying to pass off as something that it isn't.

I'm curious to see how it all plays out once the list is active....

Yeh I get what you're saying -- and I think we are on the same page for the most part!

Of course, it's all about perception. But in my example above, I got the reels for way less than market value (random bargain deal), and sold them for market value.

The sellers I personally have problems with are those who seem to intentionally inflate the market prices, instead of just participating. These guys are not 'buying low/selling high', they are 'buying up all at standard price/selling at artificially high rate. I think the key point I'm making that can be summed up with the term artificial -- it's not a normal rise or normal variance.

Sure you can argue, 'if someone wants to charge $XXX, and a buyer wants to pay $XXX, that that is market value.' But that's where I disagree and think the monopoly/price fixing concepts come into play.

I suppose I'm with Beck on this for the reason that these sellers are sort of 'tricking' the buyers in a way that is subtle.

 

[Roozter]

Teac 3300s A 3300 2 Track Two Track Reel to Reel Tape Deck Recorder Pro Serviced | eBay

This seems a tad high. Ive attempted to do business with the guy before and they wont budge on prices because apparently buying up dead machines, restoring them via third party, and passing off repair costs to the customers is good business nowadays. Imho, a teac in good shape should go for around 75-125 a track, where he got that number is beyond me.

I think his other listings are generally kind of fair, but this one ticked me off. I think this is a good example of what Beck is trying to stop. This isnt buying low and selling high, this is selling bottled water to someone in the desert for a fee they cant afford. Its whats going to kill analog recording in the end.

These last remaining pieces of analog gear need to be sold for what they sadly are; outdated machinery that nobody wants or needs, and if one part goes bad it is instantly worthless. It is completly irresponsible to sell a deck worth 200 to someone for 650, when it could be worth 0 by the time it gets off the UPS truck. And once one of them sells for 650, they all sell for 650, which in turn raises prices for repairable machines as well.

In the end, if we dont do something, no gear or money will be exchanging hands. We wont pay, and they wont sell. Theyll lower prices, yeah, but the inflation will remain on some level until all that gear you NEED to record got bought up by that one sucker who was willing to pay.

Ive said it once and ill say it again. We need to keep analog recording within the community of the people who view it as an artform. Pass on your machines, teach the skills needed, trade parts, repair for free, and oust and eradicate entities that threaten the suvival of what is truly the greatest recording medium humans have. If it dies, all we'll have left some day is shitty mp3 and behringer boards. So i recommend everyone who cares get on board with this and push it.

 

[Roozter]

Oh, and if nobody can afford the gear, nobody has a reason to buy tape. Say goodbye to ATR and RMGI. Once theyre gone, the inflation will soar even higher, and then its lights out.

 

[miroslav]

...they wont budge on prices because apparently buying up dead machines, restoring them via third party, and passing off repair costs to the customers is good business nowadays.

Assuming that the machines are in fact restored/repaired...who DO you think should absorb the cost...???

You think someone should buy a broken down deck for $200....fix it...and then sell it to you for $200...???

Be serious and realistic.
If you bought a broken down machine, and then sunk money into it to recondition it....I'm positive you would not resell it at your original cost without recouping any of your repair costs.

These last remaining pieces of analog gear need to be sold for what they sadly are; outdated machinery that nobody wants or needs, and if one part goes bad it is instantly worthless. It is completely irresponsible to sell a deck worth 200 to someone for 650, when it could be worth 0 by the time it gets off the UPS truck. And once one of them sells for 650, they all sell for 650, which in turn raises prices for repairable machines as well.

Wait...."that nobody wants or needs"....?
Sounds to me like you really want it....you just don't want to pay the seller's price. You want him to absorb the cost of repairs, and then give you a really great deal.....why?
AFA shipping.....you insure it for the FULL price. If it falls off the UPS truck, you're covered.

I'm not saying $650 is a good or bad price for that deck....but there are several people watching that listing, which implies there ARE people who may want it.
If someone gives him $650....then that is what the deck is worth to both seller and buyer.
If you don't like the price....haggle....make a deal or look for a better one elsewhere.


C'mon now guys....complaining about sellers who lie & cheat is one thing....simply not liking the price of something, especially when someone else is willing to pay that price....that's another thing.

 

[Superreverb]

Sounds to me like you really want it....you just don't want to pay the seller's price. You want him to absorb the cost of repairs, and then give you a really great deal.....why?

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[miroslav]

No need to...I'm here live every night.

Hey...I'm one of the more frugal hagglers on eBay, so I don't blame anyone for wanting to get a low, low price...
...but there are times when I REALLY want something, and the seller just ain't budging on the price, so then I gotta release the buck without the whine and remorse.

 

[Roozter]

Youre missing the big picture. If some idiot does buy that, it raises the average asking price. Thats bad for all of us, and you know for what it really is, thats a ridiculous price.

This is happening to pretty much every type of decent analog gear. Its just economics. But what were doing is combating inflation. Lower your prices or get boycotted by your target market. People do it to all types of businesses and entities for eveything from bad service to... guess what? High prices.

So in reality this is a pretty rational and intelligent thing for analog users to do. Also, no. I dont want to pay a price that high for any gear. I dont think any of us do. I think youre just trolling this thread a little and dodging the real issue at hand, and kind of making this out to be us getting butthurt over free trade, killing these ebay sellers already meager profits.

Or maybe youre secretly flower pot guy. Trying to thwart our plans. But seriously, the whole point of this is to kind of regulate what ebay cant, and yes, force them to lower their prices. I just see no place for debate in this. Nobody can complain about what either side is doing, its fair, its legal, and its just the way things tend to get balanced out.

 

[miroslav]

Then you should black list the buyers for paying those high prices....not the sellers.
Until the buyers pay, the seller has nothing.

That's the point that you are missing....it's not the sellers....it's the buyers driving up the prices, which means some people ARE willing to pay because to them the price is worth it...and that's what really bugs you....that some guy is willing to drop $650 on a deck which you feel should only be sold at $200....because that's what you would like to pay for it.

I just don't see how anyone can argue that a price is too high, if the seller and buyer agree on the price....???
That just comes off as sour grapes 'cuz maybe you really wanted the item, but didn't want to pay what someone else was willing to pay.
You can try to attach some righteous motives about "fair" price fixing.....

The best and only thing you can really do when you don't like the price....either haggle or walk away.

 

[gecko zzed]

it's not the sellers....it's the buyers driving up the prices

The best and only thing you can really do when you don't like the price....either haggle or walk away.

I'm totally with Miro on this.

No article ever has an intrinsic monetary value. And that effectively means it is worth nothing . . . until someone else wants it and is prepared to pay money for it. The amount that the person is prepared to pay becomes its value. Not the price set by the seller.

 

[rob aylestone]

This is the point isn't it. The real worth of an item is either the price buyer and seller are willing to trade at, or the worth to the owner in terms of ohysically having it. I have some very old lighting equipment I use regularly because it's just better at it than most modern kit. I won't sell it. It's real value when sold as a working light is a few pounds, almost scrap value. However polished up, fitted with a domestic lamp, they sell on eBay for ten times this price. While I might tut a bit at the stupidity of the buyer, it's their money, and I have a smile for the person who took a piece of scrap and sold it for many times it's worth. I sometimes wish I had the patience to do this to the worst of my collection, but I can't be bothered. We live in a free world, and I can't help feeling that the resentment to entrepreneurial enterprises is not exactly something that is good, rather a bit selfish, because you want a bargain?