grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
That's a relief. I thought I had worms.
Are we loseing too much of ourself in the studio to achieve perfection?
- Thread starter Illsidgus
- Start date
I understand your point. But as a last reply to this thread, for me perfection or imperfection is not a matter of number of takes.
One can make 100 takes if he feel he still have to push things further. He can do it without looking for perfection. Going the further you can will not necessarily lead you to perfection, but maybe deeper in what you are doing.
And as for the subtle things, our whole world is made of subtle things we don't see or hear....but yet, a lot of these things have great impact on us.
One can make 100 takes if he feel he still have to push things further. He can do it without looking for perfection. Going the further you can will not necessarily lead you to perfection, but maybe deeper in what you are doing.
And as for the subtle things, our whole world is made of subtle things we don't see or hear....but yet, a lot of these things have great impact on us.
I think we ascribe more credit to what we supposedly hear 'subtly' than is really there. How do we know if it's it's there if it's meant to be subtle and not consciously perceived ?
Also, what is perfect playing ? Even where people have stated that they hated the people they were playing with, I've not noticed that in any vibe. I honestly can't see any difference in a 3rd take or a 53rd take. Earlier, you mentioned the Beatles. Did you know that "I will" took 67 takes to perfect ? Did you know they spent a month on "Strawberry fields forever" ? "Happiness is a warm gun" took 15 hours and 95 takes to get right. "Not guilty" took 102 takes.
Who said romance was dead ?
The_Sluggard
New member
The emergence of digital technology has tempted many commercial producers to use the tools to fix every rhythmic or pitch imperfection. I think this has, in turn, changed the way that listeners hear music. Over time, I believe we've become used to flawless, artificially-enhanced performances, so we have less tolerance now for these imperfections.
It's kind of like the "loudness wars" debate. One might decide to leave some blemishes in his recordings, but in comparison to the auto-tuned, quantized, commercial recordings, his stuff will sound amateurish. To a certain extent, this puts pressure on everyone to conform to the "perfection" norm. However, the interesting thing is that this seems to have created a backlash, as there are certain genres ("lo fi"), where imperfections are not only tolerated, but valued.
In my own recordings, if something annoys me every time I play back the track, I'll fix it. However, sometimes a mistake will actually sound good to me, so I'll leave it in. This practice might lead some listeners to perceive my work as amateurish, but I'm willing to risk that to an extent, because it's art. I like to see the thumbprint of the artist in the work, even if it's a smudge. However, artistic taste is highly subjective, so everyone has to decide for themselves where to draw that line.
It's kind of like the "loudness wars" debate. One might decide to leave some blemishes in his recordings, but in comparison to the auto-tuned, quantized, commercial recordings, his stuff will sound amateurish. To a certain extent, this puts pressure on everyone to conform to the "perfection" norm. However, the interesting thing is that this seems to have created a backlash, as there are certain genres ("lo fi"), where imperfections are not only tolerated, but valued.
In my own recordings, if something annoys me every time I play back the track, I'll fix it. However, sometimes a mistake will actually sound good to me, so I'll leave it in. This practice might lead some listeners to perceive my work as amateurish, but I'm willing to risk that to an extent, because it's art. I like to see the thumbprint of the artist in the work, even if it's a smudge. However, artistic taste is highly subjective, so everyone has to decide for themselves where to draw that line.
Illsidgus
Desiccated Member
Back in the 60s and 70s we had a name for this kind of music. The kind of music that seams to permeate the music industry today. Music where all the peaks and valleys have been smoother out so that there is a nice smooth waveform from beginning to end of the song. We called it elevator music. I am not saying that there isn't any good music these days, there are some excellent tunes coming out, but they seem to lack the nerve jangling/bone jarring punch of earlier recordings.
The_Sluggard
New member
I agree that there definitely seems to be less risk in commercial music today. Even stuff that is supposed to be "edgy" is edgy in a predictable, genre-specific way. Related to this is that bands are generally forced into a particular box for marketing purposes - this one's "alt.country", that one's "post-rock", this other one is "adult alternative" - which means that artists are pressured to avoid precisely the type of eclecticism and genre-hopping that made earlier bands exciting and original.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
jimmys69
MOODerator
Really, you want to start another one?
You do realize that there are players in that genre that are so absolutely incredibly tight in perfection of playing that they do not need software to make them perfect right?
Just because the genre is not your forte, does not mean it is not good. Just a different movement in music history.
I'm just going to leave it at that and not make any personal judgements. The reason why? Because I do not wish to listen to people try to say what is good and what isn't. It is up to the listener-PERIOD.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Don't take it so personal dude.
There is an obsession with micro-perfection in modern Metal that I didn't invent, and that has been commented on by many other people. Whether it's been edited or punch-recorded or played into micro-perfection....is another discussion.
I use to really like Metal when it was more Hard Rock flavored....so I got nothing against Metal in general....I'm just making an observation about where it's currently at....ain't nothing made up about that.
Oh..and what do you mean "you want to start another one"...?
I don't start anything around here, but you seem to be....not sure what you're getting mad about....?
There is an obsession with micro-perfection in modern Metal that I didn't invent, and that has been commented on by many other people. Whether it's been edited or punch-recorded or played into micro-perfection....is another discussion.
I use to really like Metal when it was more Hard Rock flavored....so I got nothing against Metal in general....I'm just making an observation about where it's currently at....ain't nothing made up about that.
Oh..and what do you mean "you want to start another one"...?
I don't start anything around here, but you seem to be....not sure what you're getting mad about....?
Illsidgus
Desiccated Member
I didn't realize that there were still bands recording heavy metal. But then I don't listen to the radio. Is there anyone still recording disco? Heavy metal disco, that would be an interesting sound.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
There's probably some band in Germany doing it....they've found ways to apply Metal to many styles.
Illsidgus
Desiccated Member
I lived in Germany for 4 years...there were quite a few interesting and disturbing styles of music coming from there.There's probably some band in Germany doing it....they've found ways to apply Metal to many styles.
Dr.SpringReverb
Dieser Hund
Almost:There's probably some band in Germany doing it....they've found ways to apply Metal to many styles.
Illsidgus
Desiccated Member
jimmys69
MOODerator
This type of comment is exactly why I will not argue with you anymore. I took nothing personal-as you always try to make it. I am not starting anything.
I have no specific love for metal, and have no desire to hear your opinions about how it is recorded, nor your contribution of opinion as to such. I do not care if you think that others comments make your position more clear. It does not mean anything to those that make a living doing such.
It is not the fact that you have an opinion that I have issue with, it is the fact that you go out of your way to throw in your opinion, even without anyone asking for it. And if any particular person confronts you or even makes a simple comment to you, you make it all about yourself and your experience. I would personally love to learn from you, but IMO, it is impossible to have a honest conversation with you, as you always have a contradictory response to everything anyone says to you.
After reading you incessantly argue points in the 'Would you do analog recording'? thread, I have just grown personally tired of hearing it altogether.
Miro, you do come across as if you know everything about everything. None of us do. Please stop portraying yourself as someone who does, or knows everything about those who do know it all. It is just not cool man.
I am sure this is going to go nowhere good...
The cut / paste perfection and re-editing are the things that the DAW have going for it, and it is keeping digital home recording engaging.
The technology is getting better. Availability has opened the market place. I have tried 3 2x2 usb interfaces, they all sounded the same. It is nice that the field is level, but it is very empty.
Nowadays you can get a ribbon for 100 bucks, throw a high quality transformer in it. Then achieve very nice recordings in a DAW via a 2x2. Nice, I call them. Clear and structured , but not really good. I think the brands need to focus on getting a more fluid sound. It is nice to have infinite tracks to add ideas and changes, but if you cannot get a mix it is a waste. It is getting better , but for analog sources it will be a battle.
If you record digital vst's only, it will pose no issue.
Perfection, I am still waiting.
The technology is getting better. Availability has opened the market place. I have tried 3 2x2 usb interfaces, they all sounded the same. It is nice that the field is level, but it is very empty.
Nowadays you can get a ribbon for 100 bucks, throw a high quality transformer in it. Then achieve very nice recordings in a DAW via a 2x2. Nice, I call them. Clear and structured , but not really good. I think the brands need to focus on getting a more fluid sound. It is nice to have infinite tracks to add ideas and changes, but if you cannot get a mix it is a waste. It is getting better , but for analog sources it will be a battle.
If you record digital vst's only, it will pose no issue.
Perfection, I am still waiting.
Last edited:
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
All I said was..."look at modern Metal"...and then you say "Really, you want to start another one?".....well, that was you implying something negative and looking to start something.
Then when I reply and ask you what are you getting mad about....you give me all ^^^^^^ that.
I also don't get why you want to do this online rather than offline...talk about “not cool”.
You harped on me a few times in the past on the open forums...then you sent me PMs saying "sorry dude, I was having a bad day"....how cool was that?
You wanna talk about this some more....let's get Chater involved, because I don't want you to accuse me that I am "arguing" here with you. I'm just trying to understand where the heck you're coming from...and maybe that's best done offline and with her involvement since she oversees HR and what goes on here.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Of course, this whole thread comes from the perspective that you are actually recording live performances to begin. I would submit that many (if not most) home recordists are actually involved in the more electronic genres which don't in fact rely so heavily on live performance. That is, you've got a whole lot of techno (or whatever the fuck they're calling it nowadays) and hip-hip and whatnot where most of the music is in fact sequenced to begin with. That is, a whole lot of what comes out of home recording situations starts out on the grid, perfectly in time and in tune to begin with, and in fact could not exist outside of the studio. Ask those folks if they're "losing themselves" in the studio.
But even short of the fully sequenced electronic music there has always been a large segment of the recording community who's entire intent is to use the studio itself as an instrument - to deliberately use the tools available in the studio to create things that could not exist in the "real world". From Les Paul to the Beatles and Hendrix to Eno, NIN, and on and on. Ask them if they "lost themselves".
But, part of what spurred me to post this was the idea that if you look into the more studio focused and electronic genres I think that many of these folks have found that they get the "best", most satisfying results when they deliberately add some slop to what would otherwise come across as too sterile and machine-like. They add some amount of randomization or "humanization" to timing and/or pitch to keep things interesting. From experience I can say that even a tiny little bit can make a noticeable difference. Whether that difference is positive or negative depends entirely on what you're trying to do. Just thought it was an interesting perspective on the whole thing. We're talking about taking imperfect performances toward perfection, while so many are trying to take "perfect" things and mess them up a bit.
But even short of the fully sequenced electronic music there has always been a large segment of the recording community who's entire intent is to use the studio itself as an instrument - to deliberately use the tools available in the studio to create things that could not exist in the "real world". From Les Paul to the Beatles and Hendrix to Eno, NIN, and on and on. Ask them if they "lost themselves".
But, part of what spurred me to post this was the idea that if you look into the more studio focused and electronic genres I think that many of these folks have found that they get the "best", most satisfying results when they deliberately add some slop to what would otherwise come across as too sterile and machine-like. They add some amount of randomization or "humanization" to timing and/or pitch to keep things interesting. From experience I can say that even a tiny little bit can make a noticeable difference. Whether that difference is positive or negative depends entirely on what you're trying to do. Just thought it was an interesting perspective on the whole thing. We're talking about taking imperfect performances toward perfection, while so many are trying to take "perfect" things and mess them up a bit.