Are room treatments really necessary?

soldierone

soldierone

the future is amazing...
Hey everyone... I've been here for a few days now, and have got a lot of great insight into putting together a great studio. I'm currently in the process of rearranging a space that I've been using for awhile in order to make it more functional, so I'm sure I'll be around here more as that happens. But anyway...

What I wanted to touch on is room treatments. I've recorded in all kinds of places, from great commercial studios to bizarre warehouse spaces, bathrooms... you get the idea. I always had more luck achieving the sound I was looking for though when I was working in less than ideal circumstances though.

The last time we recorded in a commercial studio, we worked in a few great rooms, and everything sounded great while we were there. The room seemed properly treated, and even the examples of other artists who had recorded there sounded great. The big problem came well after we had finished our mix and got ready to master it. The recording sounded like crap.

About six months later, with some new equpiment and some free or inexpensive programs we found online, (does Audacity ring a bell for anyone's first recording program?) we had put together our first really great record. I had recorded it in several different places using a hard drive recorder, which I later imported into the computer to finish mixing.

The thing about our mixes on that particular record was that we used some old computer speakers, (which sounded good short of some dirty faders,) and did all of our mixing in a bedroom with NO room treatments.

Needless to say, I have mixed thoughts on room treatments. The concept makes sense to me in a tracking room, as it's nice to be able to control the sound in the room where the instruments are playing, before you go to tape, but as I've never had problems mixing without them, I'm wondering if it will really make a difference in the final mix.

And on a similar note, if someone is already comfortable in an enviroment mixing, despite not having room treatments, could it potentially make mixing more difficult, as the response of the room has changed?

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this!
 
It may not be 'necessary' per se, you can still sit there and track and mix in a 8' concrete cube. But you'll attain WAY better results in a good room.
 
Let's hear a sample of what you recorded in "not so ideal" places, and mixed in a bedroom with computer speakers.
 
(look up Gravity Euphonic on myspace and listen... I apparently haven't made enough posts yet to post a url!)

The first track, "Tragedy" is one of my favorite recordings to date. We tracked all the vocals in a concrete room with a SM58, almost everything else is either midi or sequenced and the guitars are through a Yamaha DG Amp running direct with a third guitar panned center through a SM57. The song was mixed on my old computer speakers, (which I replaced with RP5s a few years ago,) in a bedroom.

The other songs were all recorded in somewhat better enviroments as I'm constantly looking to improve. I've upgraded a lot of equipment since then, (Tragedy was recorded in 2003,) including improvements in mics, keyboards and mixer, but the song still has a quality to it that I often struggle to get in my more recent recordings. It's a matter of taste I guess, but I really felt that magic happened with that recording.
 
suprstar said:
It may not be 'necessary' per se, you can still sit there and track and mix in a 8' concrete cube. But you'll attain WAY better results in a good room.
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Fortunately, the room I'm mixing in now isn't concrete! I tracked some stuff in rooms like that, but the worst I've mixed in was a typical bedroom.
 
soldierone said:
(look up Gravity Euphonic on myspace and listen... I apparently haven't made enough posts yet to post a url!)

The first track, "Tragedy" is one of my favorite recordings to date. We tracked all the vocals in a concrete room with a SM58, almost everything else is either midi or sequenced and the guitars are through a Yamaha DG Amp running direct with a third guitar panned center through a SM57. The song was mixed on my old computer speakers, (which I replaced with RP5s a few years ago,) in a bedroom.

The other songs were all recorded in somewhat better enviroments as I'm constantly looking to improve. I've upgraded a lot of equipment since then, (Tragedy was recorded in 2003,) including improvements in mics, keyboards and mixer, but the song still has a quality to it that I often struggle to get in my more recent recordings. It's a matter of taste I guess, but I really felt that magic happened with that recording.
Click to expand...


Well, room treatment isn't as necessary if you doing most everything direct. You can certainly hear nodal problems in Tragedy though, especially in the lows, and low mids.

I would say room treatment would probably be the single biggest thing you could do to improve your recordings.
 
NL5 said:
You can certainly hear nodal problems in Tragedy though, especially in the lows, and low mids.
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Honestly, even with my new monitors and all, I have trouble hearing what's going on down there until I do a quick mix, and listen to it on a completely different system or two and make adjustments from what I heard. Low frequencies are the hardest to get right... would adjusting the room make it easier to hear them then?
 
Yes, absorbing some of those rogue frequencies will allow you to hear the mix, not the mix + reflections, standing waves, etc
 
soldierone said:
would adjusting the room make it easier to hear them then?
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Yes. And it's not just the lows, you have obvious nodes in the low mids as well.

Do you find that it sounds different on different systems in different rooms?
 
NL5 said:
Do you find that it sounds different on different systems in different rooms?
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I almost regularly run into that situation... it'll sound one way in one room, different in another or in the car. By the time I'm done, it's usually pretty clear in all my listening spaces, but it's still a pain.

I've even considered adding a sub to my monitor setup, but a lot of people have said it's probably not really necessary.

Adding some kind of treatment might be the next route I take when setting it up, but I really have no idea where I'd start.
 
If you can't trust what your monitors are telling you when you are recording, then you can't trust what your monitors tell you when you mix. If your monitoring SPACE comb filtering (ie control room) masks comb filtering in the studio, then how are you going to tell what is happening for real? Your space lies TWICE...once when recording and then again when you mix. And don't tell me the "commercial studios" had good treatment. Unless they showed you TESTS of the room response, then you don't know diddly squat.:)
fitZ
 
Treatment is always necessary, though the kind of treatment depends on what you want to acheive. Phil Collins recorded in the air tonight in a stone room and does Headly Grange ring a bell? These are examples of spaces that people considered "less than ideal" but look at their results. Some of the tracks for U2's Joshua Tree was recorded in Larry Mullen's front room. The effect of each room is different and each room can be played to it's strong suits. The point of a commercial studio is to work for as many different situations as possible, so it may not give the best result on song A but sound really great for song B, etc.

As far as treatment goes, the guys are right, any standing waves or comb filtering is utter abomination. Other lesser imperfections can be tolerated (though you need to be aware that they are there and the effect they can have on your recordings and mixes). But if you are looking for a really different sound, try a bunch of different and "less than ideal" rooms. You just might find the next Headly Grange.
 
The effect of each room is different and each room can be played to it's strong suits. The point of a commercial studio is to work for as many different situations as possible, so it may not give the best result on song A but sound really great for song B, etc.
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You can use any space you want for the STUDIO, as illustrated by the numerous successful recordings made in bathrooms, halls, empty basements, castles, anachoic chambers or what ever. Recording is as much art as it is science. And beauty is in the ear of the beholder. However, when these recordings were made, I'd bet that whoever was monitoring the LIVE sound over monitors(or headphones) REALLY couldn't tell how these recordings were going to TRANSPOSE to other systems UNTILL, they listened in a properly treated CONTROL ROOM, which allowed them to MIX them accurately to taste. Then tested them on a variety of systems for comparison of sonic compatibility, such as an MP3 on headphones, or CD in a car, boombox, computer, small shelf speakers, large living room system or whatever the target of the audience NORMALLY would be using.

Furthermore, I'd submit that whoever was engineering the ACTUAL recording at the time they were made, did so in the same room as the musicians who were playing(when done in NON STUDIO spaces), and couldn't possibly hear the real "signature" of the recording untill played back in a control room that didn't MASK the "signature" on the recording. This is the problem MOST home recording enthusiasts encounter when playing back material over other systems. When they monitor in THEIR home "control room", it sounds wonderfull once they EQ or whatever. But novice home control rooms usually are not treated properly nor laid out properly, whereby the "room" lies to them. Not only when the first listen, but during the mix as well. Then they can't understand why their mixes sound "boomy", or muddy, or lack definition, or spatiousness, or bandwidth evenness, or stereo placement, or any number of things. But usually, its LOW FREQUENCY boominess. Due to NOT being able to hear it when mixing. ie....small room modal response. Hence..bass traps.

The real difference between recording in these types of spaces vs a studio
is usually the sonic SIGNATURE of the space itself, which may or may not have been intentional. And there lies the ART. Even with numerous spaces, a given studio may NOT have the ACOUSTICAL signature a producer or artist is looking for, even with modern digital "acoustical shaping" processors. However, NON studio spaces usually do not allow for accurate monitoring at the time and force the "quality authority" to make judgements when listening back to the material in the same room as recorded in, which may or may not lie to them at the time. Its only when they listen over a variety of systems, or a properly designed control room, that they discover anomolys that force the "authority" to either RE RECORD the tracks, or spend hours and days trying to "fix" the unfixable because they couldn't HEAR these anomolys at the time the recording was made.

This is why, MOST pro control rooms are designed with certain acoustical "tools" built in for accurate monitoring of the source.

The first is DEPENDABLE monitors. Studio monitors are WAY different than consumer speakers. They are designed to be FLAT across the frequency spectrum. This means there are no frequency PEAKS, which are actually built in to consumer speakers. And this is also why most people do NOT like the sound of recordings played back on STUDIO MONITORS

RFZ(Reflection Free Zone) at the engineering position, which is done via either or a combination of room geometry(splayed walls/cielings for reflecting energy to the back wall, and or absorption at sidewalls and cieling. These reflections combine and subtract with the direct sound, which cause comb filtering.

Equalateral and monitor height geometry, and depth placement. This is extremely important so the monitors are NOT in a certain frequency null, nor is the engineering position. Usually having to do with the dimensions/modal response of a given room.

TDG. TIME DELAY GAP. Distance to CONTROL ROOM rear wall determines the time it takes for a reflection off the rear wall to reach the engineering position. Usually, this TDG is determined by a phenomena whereby the mind "integrates" all sounds that arrive at the ears within .2ms of the direct sound. However, the TDG(TIME DELAY GAP in the studio, which is the LONGEST distance from a microphone to a boundary may be LONGER than in the control room, which means the engineer can't HEAR these comb filters because the control room MASKS the STUDIO TDG. The time it takes for a sound to reflect back to the mic from a boundary is the TDG. These reflections create what is known as "comb filters". The reflections add and subtract to the direct sound because of the time delay of the reflections. The easiest way to hear a "comb filter", is to wear a pair of headphones while talking into a mic. Walk from the center of the room right up to a boundary(wall) and listen to the sound change for the worse. If the engineer can't hear these comb filters, then he can't make subjective sonic decisions accurately.

Diffusion. Specular reflection from the rear wall is the control room "devil". Add absorption to the rear wall and you remove sonic energy, which may leave your recordings mixed with a "lifeless" sound. Because of modal anomolys of the room, these reflections make for very uneven decay of the control room RT-60. This RT-60 in SMALL rooms is a bugger to fix, because the decay is UNEVEN across the spectrum. This is why small rooms sound "boomy". The decay of the modal frequencys are determined by the dimensions of the room. MID LOWS are the worst, because of the wavelengths related to small room dimensions. Below these frequencys, there is no modal support in the room. And REAL SMALL rooms are impossible to fix.
Normally, bass traps in all corners of the room are used to control these frequencies. However, the frequencies ABOVE these modal responses reflect off the rear wall in SPECULAR fashion...ie... RAYS.

Diffuse this reflection and the RT-60 ...ie...reverb of the room(the time it takes for sound to decay 60db) becomes even across the frequency bandwidth. At least down to a certain point. However, because of the size limitation of COMMONLY used Diffusers, such as QRD's, Prime Root and Skyline diffusers, their performance, LOW frequency wise is almost nill. This is where LARGE POLY diffusers come in. But they do not "diffuse". They "scatter" reflections in a NON TIME DELAY fashion. However, the battle of diffusion types, and or absorption vs diffusion rages on to this day. Ask about diffusion on any number of "acoustic" forums, and you'll get as many different points of view as there are participants in the discussion. My view is...trust your ears.:D

Well, I've touched on a few elements of control room design as I have time for. This whole thing regarding control room design changes with each decade of artistic recording experience. In 30 years, these changes have cycled, recycled and regurgitated many times in many ways. However, the fact remains. There are only 3 things a person can use to change the acoustic signature of a space. ABSORPTION. DIFFUSION. REFLECTION. However, understanding the nature and principles of these elements will give you the tools to better understand the direction one must take to use them effectively.

Later.
fitZ
 
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Well, fitZ, I guess a good question is are you a live end-dead end guy or a non-environment guy. As far as the story of Headly Grange goes, the engineer (can't think of his name but he was the Stones' engineer for a good while) was actually in the "control room" and not in the tracking room.

You made very good points about the designs, but I think that what we were looking into here is a simple home setup and addressing the rfz, diffusion, tdg and other things seems a little beyond the scope of this discussion. Mind you, they are essential for someone who actually designs spaces for a more commercial purpose, but to replicate it in one's home without training could prove more disastrous than the untreated room to begin with. But the benefits of a commercial studio are clear, that is for sure. It should just be kept in mind that they are not the end all be all of recording and each studio can be very different from the next, even though they are each "professional".
 
Well, fitZ, I guess a good question is are you a live end-dead end guy or a non-environment guy.
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Niether. I'm a home recording enthusiast with a small control room/studio thats treated for variable acoustics, in as much as you can alter the signature of a small room. As to my points....he asked if treatment is necessary. I tried to show why they are, at least in a control room. Here is what I am building. The studio is ALMOST done. These are the sketchup design/detailing files. They are NOT finished:) Niether is the rear wall. And actually, I'll post a thread showing exactly what I am doing there. The Skyline was only and exercise in Sketchup:D Oh, btw, these do NOT show all the 703 superchunks etc. Only the covers.
fitZ
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soldierone said:
(look up Gravity Euphonic on myspace and listen... I apparently haven't made enough posts yet to post a url!)

The first track, "Tragedy" is one of my favorite recordings to date. We tracked all the vocals in a concrete room with a SM58, almost everything else is either midi or sequenced and the guitars are through a Yamaha DG Amp running direct with a third guitar panned center through a SM57. The song was mixed on my old computer speakers, (which I replaced with RP5s a few years ago,) in a bedroom.

The other songs were all recorded in somewhat better environments as I'm constantly looking to improve. I've upgraded a lot of equipment since then, (Tragedy was recorded in 2003,) including improvements in mics, keyboards and mixer, but the song still has a quality to it that I often struggle to get in my more recent recordings. It's a matter of taste I guess, but I really felt that magic happened with that recording.
Click to expand...
Sounds fine to me. The important thing is that you and the band are happy with the sound. As others have mentioned, if you're running most of the stuff direct, you don't need a great room. You can certainly put up some gobos in any space to kill reflections for vocal recordings.
 
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