fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Oh, you're wrong, my friend. RAMI makes the rules. This tune is 4/4.
Lay off the crack.
12/8 or 4/4 with a triplet feel
- Thread starter paw1
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Lay off the crack.
Steenamaroo
...
It's not a rule and even if it was there'd always be exceptions but, broadly speaking, yeah..
If there's an obvious accent suggesting some grouping, like in HOTRS, I'll use that as an indication of time signature.
HOTRS just seems natural to me counting with the guitar (Am)1-2-3-4-5-6-(C)1-2-3-4-5-6 etc
Idk, like I say, not rules but it just makes sense to me.
I mean, if there was a score flying around, written by The Animals, which had a much slower tempo, 4/4, and the guitar scored in triplets, I'd be wrong.
BUT I'd probably be saying 'well, the snare is on 2+4 so it makes sense'.
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
HotRS is definitely 4/4. 
Honestly tho, I'd be inclined to count HotRs in 6 and the OP riff as a 4 shuffle on bass. That has a lot to do with what the drums are doing. The OP riff has a strong emphasis on the kick-snare pattern you hear in 4 while HotRS emphasizes the 6s on the ride.
Honestly tho, I'd be inclined to count HotRs in 6 and the OP riff as a 4 shuffle on bass. That has a lot to do with what the drums are doing. The OP riff has a strong emphasis on the kick-snare pattern you hear in 4 while HotRS emphasizes the 6s on the ride.
Nola
Well-known member
Cool thread. Famous Beagle or anyone else who knows, would you call the 3:17 mark of this song 4/4 with triplet feel (and a syncopated beat)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruFbcNlAcqQ
I was trying to tab it out last night and figure the strum and that's what i came up with. It doesn't feel right in 6/8 or 12/8 to me. Should 4/4 with triplet and 6/8 or 12/8 always have the same feel? Like should you be able to strum exactly the same in any of them? 4/4 triplet feels slightly different to me, if that's what this song is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruFbcNlAcqQ
I was trying to tab it out last night and figure the strum and that's what i came up with. It doesn't feel right in 6/8 or 12/8 to me. Should 4/4 with triplet and 6/8 or 12/8 always have the same feel? Like should you be able to strum exactly the same in any of them? 4/4 triplet feels slightly different to me, if that's what this song is.
Steenamaroo
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Hey Nola,
I don't hear/see the confusion at 3:17. The tempo and meter don't change.
There's not even triplets or syncopation. It's literally just 4/4 as before with a new strum pattern.
I don't hear/see the confusion at 3:17. The tempo and meter don't change.
There's not even triplets or syncopation. It's literally just 4/4 as before with a new strum pattern.
Nola
Well-known member
Hm, I don't know that's just how I hear it for some reason. It doesn't sound or feel like straight 4/4 to me
How do you count the accents?
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famous beagle
Well-known member
You're right that there's no new tempo or meter, but there is a strong syncopation actually. He's heavily accenting the "and" of beat 3 in every other measure, which is what I think may be throwing Nola off.
Holy crap that tune speeds up big time from the beginning.
Steenamaroo
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There's an offbeat accent in there, sure. If that's technically syncopation then fair enough, but I don't hear that as being any way complicated.
famous beagle
Well-known member
It would be:
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
famous beagle
Well-known member
I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but what do you consider syncopation if not that? (I'm sincerely asking.)
Syncopation
1. Music. a shifting of the normal accent, usually by stressing the normally unaccented beats.
I agree it's not complicated, but if you're not used to counting music, then maybe it would throw off some people.
Nola
Well-known member
Thanks, Beagle, that's close to what I tabbed in the drum machine.
I did 1 2 (3) e 4 &
I thought the 3 beat was on an "e" of a 16th note strum not the &. It feels like a longer delay.
I wasn't sure about it being triplets...I only mentioned that part b/c last night when trying to tab it it seemed to gel more with the metronome on triplets, but maybe I just subconsciously adjusted my strum to the metronome.
Nola
Well-known member
Yeah as a non drummer syncopation always throws me off. I can play it just fine by feel and use it all the time when writing songs, but when I sit down to tab something it's another story.
The main reason I want to learn all this is to program drums more easily. I'm learning but it's slow going b/c I just watch youtubes here and there and there are a lot of gaps in knowledge when going that route.
famous beagle
Well-known member
Cool ... yeah sometimes a song can play with your head for some reason.
One that still to this day does for me is Beethoven's "Fur Elise." For the life of me, I never want to hear those first two notes (E-D#) as pickup notes, even though I know the song is in 3/8. The first eight-note phrase (E-D#-E-D#-E-B-D-C) always sounds like 2/4 to me. And then it clearly goes into 3/8 with the ascending arpeggios. But when it gets back to that phrase again, it sounds like a bar of 2/4.
Nola
Well-known member
Yeah exactly! I have other songs that I just don't hear the way sheet music says. I wonder if we all have innate feel and sometimes it just gets thrown off. Or I just stink and need more practice at tapping these...
Oh, and I meant 1 2 (3) e 4 & is how I tabbed it.
You don't think the strum on the 3 beat is a little late? It feels like a lag there like it's on the "e" instead of right on the 3. At the 3:26 bar that seems really noticeable to me. Am I hearing that wrong?
famous beagle
Well-known member
Yeah I think you're hearing it wrong. It's not to say that it's a perfectly played rhythm part, but I'm pretty certain he's always accenting the "and" of beat 3.
Beagle, here's a question for you. When I think 12/8, I think about blues with a full triplet shuffle. What about a song that has a partial shuffle, where let's say the hats and kick are playing every other eighth note slightly longer, but not as long as a full shuffle?
If you were notating that, would you tend to prefer 4/4 or 12/8? I think that is more or less my natural rhythm, at least in the songs I've been doing lately. Hand me an acoustic guitar and tell to me improvise, and my eighth notes will rarely be even.
As I understand it, the way most quantizers work is that 100% shuffle means a full triplet shuffle, while 50% would mean that the second eighth note in a pair falls halfway between even eighths and the full triplet. A lot my songs seem to gravitate toward something like a 40% or less, depending. I think of them as 4/4.
If you were notating that, would you tend to prefer 4/4 or 12/8? I think that is more or less my natural rhythm, at least in the songs I've been doing lately. Hand me an acoustic guitar and tell to me improvise, and my eighth notes will rarely be even.
As I understand it, the way most quantizers work is that 100% shuffle means a full triplet shuffle, while 50% would mean that the second eighth note in a pair falls halfway between even eighths and the full triplet. A lot my songs seem to gravitate toward something like a 40% or less, depending. I think of them as 4/4.
Steenamaroo
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R
RAMI
Guest
I wouldn't mind, but last time that almost happened, people were coming in with their "It depends on the rest of the tune", "You need context", and "You can't just set a metronome and count to figure out a time signature". All 3 of those statements are 100% false. You don't need to hear the rest of anything, you don't need "context", and you DO need to simply put on a metronome (or tap your foot) and count. It's really that simple.
I can see a thread like that ending up confusing more people than helping only because there will be too many people trying to over-complicate things due to their lack of comprehension as far as how simple it is to figure out a time signature.
Nola
Well-known member
Oh good point. I forgot it's the internet ....where nothing goes smoothly.