Question for those across the pond

DM60 said:
Because I don't know why you would care, other than they don't think the same way you do. If you don't want to believe in anything, then don't believe. If Christians want to try and hang on to something they have created, both the holidays and the founding of the US, then they have a right to say so. You saying they don't have that right makes you ignorant. Which is what I am reading here.

Either everyone has a voice, or no one has a voice. It is not a matter of what is PC for the day. Free speech has to survive the whims of the day. So you giving crap about what they are saying makes you as much a bigot as the people you are mocking.

Take the stick out of your eye and you might see what I am talking about.
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm not sure which behavior you're defending: Christians and/or Republicans getting upset when people say "Happy Holidays" or the preacher who thinks that gays will die out if we separate the "queers from the lesbians." So I'll address both.

This "freedom of speech" thing has been blown way out of proportion over the years. Yes we have free speech .... as long as we don't slander, libel, or disturb the peace, we can (for the most part) express anything we'd like. I have no problem with Christians or Christmas (for the record, I'm an agnostic). People can believe what they want. I love Christmastime. But I certainly don't get my panties in a wad if someone tells me "Happy Hanukkah," "Happy Kwanza," "Merry Christmas," or any other holiday greeting. I simply appreciate the kind wishes and thank them for it. It's not my fault that the church falsely claimed that Jesus was born on Dec. 25 so they could increase their membership. This is akin to a big brother stealing a little brother's toy and then throwing a tantrum when the little brother wants to play with it years later. Of course they're free to bitch about it, but I'm also free to call them out on it too.

Regarding the preacher ... what can I say? I mean ... if that's not ignorant ... what is? Again, yes we have free speech. But is anyone really fighting for someone's right to go door to door in a neighborhood and tell every parent he meets how he enjoys raping children in graphic detail? You have preachers telling their congregation that "the gays" should be put to death (search on YouTube for preacher Sean Harris--he's a piece of work) because "the bible sayeth so." Yet they somehow leave out the verses that talk about every other person that should be put to death for things like working on the Sabbath and other unthinkable tragedies.

Just because we have free speech doesn't mean people can or should be able to say anything without repercussions. Maybe they aren't breaking the law, but that's hardly the only code we live by as a society. There's also decency, kindness, and good will. How is it that these people, who are supposed to be asking "What would Jesus do?" can act in such direct opposition to it?
 
Armistice said:
That's actually a "thing" over here, BTW. Christmas in Australia is hot, sun, beaches, seafood - but we all put up our pine trees with fake snow on them and snowmen decorations and Santas in big red costumes, and we take our kids to the shopping centres where some poor bastard in a fat, hot suit pretends it's winter and sits the kiddies on his knee and promises them stuff, and they send letter off to the north pole etc. etc. etc.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, earlier this week during our heat wave, I was pondering whether an Aussie Christmas had any wintery element to it. Thanks Armi, you just resolved one of the great unanswered questions on my life :thumbs up:
 
I don't get offended at Happy Holidays. Doesn't bother me a bit. I also don't get offended by Merry Christmas, but it sure offends a lot of others. Why don't we say Happy Holidays in February when we celebrate Presidents' Day and Valentine's Day at the same time? I think it's amazing that the problem is everybody points the finger at each other and says, "You're intolerant." instead of tolerating everyone...

Agree that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays instituted by the Roman Catholics for whatever reason, but it also amazes me that everyone can accept Santa and the Easter bunny, but there are so many who don't accept that Christ should be part of Christ-mas...
 
BroKen_H said:
I don't get offended at Happy Holidays. Doesn't bother me a bit. I also don't get offended by Merry Christmas, but it sure offends a lot of others. Why don't we say Happy Holidays in February when we celebrate Presidents' Day and Valentine's Day at the same time? I think it's amazing that the problem is everybody points the finger at each other and says, "You're intolerant." instead of tolerating everyone...

Agree that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays instituted by the Roman Catholics for whatever reason, but it also amazes me that everyone can accept Santa and the Easter bunny, but there are so many who don't accept that Christ should be part of Christ-mas...
Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with Christ being a part of Christmas. I'm not one of those people by a long shot. I don't know for sure, but I think those people are mostly frustrated atheists who are upset about the fact that:
A) Their children are being exposed to (in school plays, etc.) what they consider nothing more than a fairytale, and they don't like the special treatment that Christians are getting over other religions (Jews for example, etc.).
B) Again, Christmas, as taking place on Dec. 25, is just as "made up" as anything else. We can't know for certain exactly when Jesus was born, but we can almost be certain that it wasn't anywhere close to Dec. 25 based on several facts in the bible. So those people trying to take Christ out of Christmas (I think) view it as trying to take back the pagan holiday(s) that the church "absorbed" as their own.

That's my take on it anyway. In other words, Dec. 25 should never have been "Christ-mas" in the first place.

I personally have never seen anyone get offended when hearing "Merry Christmas." I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It's just that I've never witnessed it.


Regarding Santa and the Easter bunny, those are things that actually have a basis in the holiday. Santa was based on a real person, and the bunny is a symbol of fertility in the pagan ritual. But Christ was not born on Dec. 25. That was just a political move by the church.
 
Still, the point is the Christ Mass was set up to celebrate the birth of the Christ.
I'm a very firm believer in Christianity as a relationship with God through His son, but I am not a believer in December 25th being his actual birthday or the feast of Esther being the first Sunday 40 days after the spring solstice having anything whatsoever to do with when His resurrection actually occurred.
I understand, however, that if you're going to celebrate His birth and resurrection on a special day, rather than celebrating them EVERY day, as I do, that picking a day is necessary. One is as good as another. Has nothing (in my opinion) to do with politics or starting fights or pulling the "Christian wool" over peoples' eyes.

Funny (speaking of politics) how a government who seems dead set against condoning specific beliefs of specific religions chooses to shut down on Christmas and Thanksgiving...do they still take a 3 day on Easter weekend?
 
BroKen_H said:
I understand, however, that if you're going to celebrate His birth and resurrection on a special day, rather than celebrating them EVERY day, as I do, that picking a day is necessary. One is as good as another. Has nothing (in my opinion) to do with politics or starting fights or pulling the "Christian wool" over peoples' eyes.
Click to expand...

Come on, now ... You seem like a reasonable person. You can't possibly believe this. You're saying that they just happened to pick Dec. 25 out of a hat? And it had nothing to do with the fact that it might make Christianity more palatable to all the other people who celebrate at that time? Whatcha smokin'? :)

I agree with your first point: that it's supposed to celebrate Christ's birth, and ... if you don't know the specific date, then you've gotta choose one. But the point is, and the reason that so many non-Christians are up in arms nowadays, that lots of Christians and "Repubtians" are getting in a tizzy and claiming that Christmas (the Dec. 25 date) should be about Christ and not all this other stuff --- when in fact, all the other stuff was there first!

You don't understand how there would be a backlash for that?
 
famous beagle said:
First of all, I'm not sure which behavior you're defending: Christians and/or Republicans getting upset when people say "Happy Holidays" or the preacher who thinks that gays will die out if we separate the "queers from the lesbians." So I'll address both.

This "freedom of speech" thing has been blown way out of proportion over the years. Yes we have free speech .... as long as we don't slander, libel, or disturb the peace, we can (for the most part) express anything we'd like. I have no problem with Christians or Christmas (for the record, I'm an agnostic). People can believe what they want. I love Christmastime. But I certainly don't get my panties in a wad if someone tells me "Happy Hanukkah," "Happy Kwanza," "Merry Christmas," or any other holiday greeting. I simply appreciate the kind wishes and thank them for it. It's not my fault that the church falsely claimed that Jesus was born on Dec. 25 so they could increase their membership. This is akin to a big brother stealing a little brother's toy and then throwing a tantrum when the little brother wants to play with it years later. Of course they're free to bitch about it, but I'm also free to call them out on it too.

Regarding the preacher ... what can I say? I mean ... if that's not ignorant ... what is? Again, yes we have free speech. But is anyone really fighting for someone's right to go door to door in a neighborhood and tell every parent he meets how he enjoys raping children in graphic detail? You have preachers telling their congregation that "the gays" should be put to death (search on YouTube for preacher Sean Harris--he's a piece of work) because "the bible sayeth so." Yet they somehow leave out the verses that talk about every other person that should be put to death for things like working on the Sabbath and other unthinkable tragedies.

Just because we have free speech doesn't mean people can or should be able to say anything without repercussions. Maybe they aren't breaking the law, but that's hardly the only code we live by as a society. There's also decency, kindness, and good will. How is it that these people, who are supposed to be asking "What would Jesus do?" can act in such direct opposition to it?
Click to expand...

I am simply defending free speech and the right for those to have opposing views. When a nation starts censoring people, for whatever reason, then the hill becomes very slippery. Recent history proves this out. And those who are intolerant of opposing views are not as intelligent they may think.
 
DM60 said:
I am simply defending free speech and the right for those to have opposing views. When a nation starts censoring people, for whatever reason, then the hill becomes very slippery. Recent history proves this out. And those who are intolerant of opposing views are not as intelligent they may think.
Click to expand...

Do you think me intolerant of opposing views?

Edit: What if my son (or your son if you have one) were to turn out to be gay, and a preacher wants to put him to death for it. Would it be ok for me to be intolerant of his opposing view?
 
No, I have no affiliation with the "Christian" church that I am a protestor (protestant) of. I don't care one way or the other what day they chose, but it is now accepted and I'm beyond arguing over motives of something that was set in motion 1300 years ago, or who were and weren't slaves 150 years ago, or any other persecution complex people face that are dead, buried and over.
The question for me isn't what were the motives of the people who set up the holiday, but what are the motives of those subverting it's accepted meaning today? Or confederate flags, or changing the meaning of marriage to where it's not a religious covenant or any of the other garbage the world is promoting.

Exactly the point there, btw. The meaning of Christmas was forced on people when it was instituted by a dominating religious zealotry (sort of like Islam is trying to do today). We decry what was done then, but defend and even support what is being done now? Now that it has been watered down to the point of Xmas completely crossing Christ out of the equation, Christians wonder why they didn't push back earlier, non-Christians wonder why they want to push back.

You are correct in assuming that I don't think Christmas was placed on Tammuz' (Nimrod's reincarnation's) birthday. But I'm not sure we can prove that was Dec 25th either, so what is the argument?
 
famous beagle said:
Do you think me intolerant of opposing views?

Edit: What if my son (or your son if you have one) were to turn out to be gay, and a preacher wants to put him to death for it. Would it be ok for me to be intolerant of his opposing view?
Click to expand...

I saw this in my RSS the other day. A company went out to do "opposing" views. They took the story about the bakers that were being fined/shut down/sued/etc. for not making gay wedding cakes or the specific "Support Gay Weddings" cake. But they did not go to gay bakeries with "Support Traditional Weddings" or "Support Straight Weddings"...they went with "Gay Marriage is Wrong". That is not an opposing viewpoint. Of course they got turned down.
I would not force a Christian baker to make a "Christianity is Wrong" cake and I would hope no one else would either. That is definitely defying separation of Church and State...you can't force people to do things directly against their beliefs. That is what the 1st Amendment is about.

The problem with your argument is when we get the impression that you think all preachers do this. Society has a way of condemning all Christianity when some wacko hits some well meaning (or not) statement out of the park. We need to get back to individual responsibility and get the government out of it.
I'm not responsible for what that preacher said. I'm not responsible for millions of Jews' genocide at the hands of Germans (even though my mother was German). I am not responsible for blacks being abducted from Africa and being forced into labor in this country. I am not responsible for Christmas being implemented or subverted. I am responsible for my own actions and reactions.
Having said that. I will not condone any nation or culture that says all ??? must die (ISIS). I will not condone hate and racist/sexist speech (although I think we take it a bit too seriously). And I will not condone making a nationally recognized day that was set up to celebrate the birth of Christ something commercial and cheap (well, we've already done it, but it doesn't mean I condone it). :)
 
BroKen_H said:
No, I have no affiliation with the "Christian" church that I am a protestor (protestant) of. I don't care one way or the other what day they chose, but it is now accepted and I'm beyond arguing over motives of something that was set in motion 1300 years ago, or who were and weren't slaves 150 years ago, or any other persecution complex people face that are dead, buried and over.
The question for me isn't what were the motives of the people who set up the holiday, but what are the motives of those subverting it's accepted meaning today? Or confederate flags, or changing the meaning of marriage to where it's not a religious covenant or any of the other garbage the world is promoting.

Exactly the point there, btw. The meaning of Christmas was forced on people when it was instituted by a dominating religious zealotry (sort of like Islam is trying to do today). We decry what was done then, but defend and even support what is being done now? Now that it has been watered down to the point of Xmas completely crossing Christ out of the equation, Christians wonder why they didn't push back earlier, non-Christians wonder why they want to push back.

You are correct in assuming that I don't think Christmas was placed on Tammuz' (Nimrod's reincarnation's) birthday. But I'm not sure we can prove that was Dec 25th either, so what is the argument?
Click to expand...

It wasn't just Tammuz' birthday; it's the Winter Solstice in general. That's from where most of the pagan holiday traditions are derived.

As to the rest of your argument, it's just cherry picking again. You want to look past things in the bible like slavery and the fact that God, for some reason, felt the need to put to death every first-born child in Egypt just because of the actions of the Pharaoh, yet verses that deal with homosexuality or marriage are for some reason burned in stone and unchanging with the world around us.
 
BroKen_H said:
I saw this in my RSS the other day. A company went out to do "opposing" views. They took the story about the bakers that were being fined/shut down/sued/etc. for not making gay wedding cakes or the specific "Support Gay Weddings" cake. But they did not go to gay bakeries with "Support Traditional Weddings" or "Support Straight Weddings"...they went with "Gay Marriage is Wrong". That is not an opposing viewpoint. Of course they got turned down.
I would not force a Christian baker to make a "Christianity is Wrong" cake and I would hope no one else would either. That is definitely defying separation of Church and State...you can't force people to do things directly against their beliefs. That is what the 1st Amendment is about.

The problem with your argument is when we get the impression that you think all preachers do this. Society has a way of condemning all Christianity when some wacko hits some well meaning (or not) statement out of the park. We need to get back to individual responsibility and get the government out of it.
I'm not responsible for what that preacher said. I'm not responsible for millions of Jews' genocide at the hands of Germans (even though my mother was German). I am not responsible for blacks being abducted from Africa and being forced into labor in this country. I am not responsible for Christmas being implemented or subverted. I am responsible for my own actions and reactions.
Having said that. I will not condone any nation or culture that says all ??? must die (ISIS). I will not condone hate and racist/sexist speech (although I think we take it a bit too seriously). And I will not condone making a nationally recognized day that was set up to celebrate the birth of Christ something commercial and cheap (well, we've already done it, but it doesn't mean I condone it). :)
Click to expand...

I agree with all of this. My comment was in response to DM60, who said that people who are intolerant of opposing views aren't intelligent.

Of course one preacher (although it's hardly only one) doesn't represent all of Christianity. I never said it did.
 
famous beagle said:
It wasn't just Tammuz' birthday; it's the Winter Solstice in general. That's from where most of the pagan holiday traditions are derived.

As to the rest of your argument, it's just cherry picking again. You want to look past things in the bible like slavery and the fact that God, for some reason, felt the need to put to death every first-born child in Egypt just because of the actions of the Pharaoh, yet verses that deal with homosexuality or marriage are for some reason burned in stone and unchanging with the world around us.
Click to expand...

Yes, I see. You came with an agenda. And that is all that must be supported...

Wait, so you're saying the slavery that the Egyptians imposed on the Israelites was right?, or that the retribution imposed was wrong?
 
BroKen_H said:
Yes, I see. You came with an agenda. And that is all that must be supported...
Click to expand...

What make me upset---and what this thread was started about---is not the well-meaning Christians of the world who do their best to serve God and be Christ-like. I think those people are great.

It's the ultra-conservative, super-intolerant, super-judgmental "Christians" taking Christ out of Christianity that make me upset. The people who publicly bash a woman because she breastfeeds in public. The people who think of all welfare recipients as nothing but lazy freeloaders. The people that think of Aids victims as "getting what they deserve."

Would Christ have done any of that? Hell no! No, no no!

Those are the kind of people that I'm talking about.
 
famous beagle said:
I agree with all of this. My comment was in response to DM60, who said that people who are intolerant of opposing views aren't intelligent.

Of course one preacher (although it's hardly only one) doesn't represent all of Christianity. I never said it did.
Click to expand...

I understood. It's good you agree, because I was agreeing with you. You see, that's something we do in debates. We accept that truth is truth and not try to twist it so it sounds like it isn't.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top