The de-evolution of live music.....yes a DJ is a musician Bobby

Ever met any musicians who want to be considered a DJ, because they use tracks in their performances? This seems quite important. If the kudos of being a musician is driving the DJs towards wanting to be considered a musician, it clearly doesn't work the other way around. Has any musician ever wanted to call themselves a DJ? I somehow doubt it. Same with dancers. I can sort of dance, but no way in a million years would anyone consider me a dancer. Dance teachers press the play button very often, they're not a DJ either. Would a DJ want to be considered a dancer too, as their contribution makes people move?
 
Music is more than simply organized sound. The fan over my head at work makes organized sound. It is not music.

A fan over your head has no agency, so it can't organise anything. It just spins with a particular frequency. That's not music, and nor would I make the claim that it was.

However, a human can record that sound and weld it into a composition . . . and then it does become music. Your analogy was probably not the best one to counter my assertion that music is organised sound.

On many occasions I have recorded the sounds around me and used them in a musical context: a tap dripping, a lawnmower, an inkjet printer, a cat purring and others. By themselves, these aren't organised sounds, nor are they music. It's only when I organise them into a musical context that they become music.

As for a DJ being a musician, LOL.......but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people in this day and age think so. Word. :rolleyes:

It seems to me that you have a fixed view on this. That's fine. However a 'DJ' does not have a single and unvarying definition that would justify declaring he or she was not a musician. Someone who hits 'play' on an ipad would not count as a musician in my view either. But there are others who are fundamentally different . . . creating and organising sound on the fly . . . pretty much what an improvising sax player does. They just use a different source for their sounds.
 
Ever met any musicians who want to be considered a DJ, because they use tracks in their performances? This seems quite important. If the kudos of being a musician is driving the DJs towards wanting to be considered a musician, it clearly doesn't work the other way around. Has any musician ever wanted to call themselves a DJ? I somehow doubt it. Same with dancers. I can sort of dance, but no way in a million years would anyone consider me a dancer. Dance teachers press the play button very often, they're not a DJ either. Would a DJ want to be considered a dancer too, as their contribution makes people move?

I'm not sure that DJs are in fact wanting to be considered musicians fore the kudos. It seems more like that others (e.g. like us) are trying to decide whether they are or are not. My impression is that DJs are quite happy calling themselves, and being known as, DJs.
 
A lot of DJs I've known are making money. They're more than happy to just wear the DJ title. They are getting paid to bring the house down. Some of these guys are pulling down 200 to 2000 a show.
Not a bad gig. Especially for minimal gear and a one man 'band'.
:D
 
A lot of DJs I've known are making money. Some of these guys are pulling down 200 to 2000 a show.

I gotz to tell ya...I'm a bit blown away at how big the whole EDM movement has gotten and how much the heavyweights make... I've copied and pasted a 2012 Forbes article below (WTF no ad block bitching this time :D ) ....4 years later I'd bet the numbers have quadrupled... so a smidge more than $200 to $2k a gig....

The 2012 Article from Forbes said:
Zack O'Malley Greenburg , FORBES STAFF
I cover the business of music, media & entertainment


Every so often, the tectonic plates of mainstream musical taste shift. In the 1960s, there was the British Invasion, followed by disco in the 1970s and the rise of glam metal in the 1980s. The 1990s saw the advent of grunge and the resurgence of boy bands, followed by hip-hop’s hegemony in the 2000s. Now, the tables are turning again.

Electronic dance music, better known as EDM, has finally surged from its underground roots and into mainstream consciousness. One need only look at the recent activities of the genre’s most prominent practitioners: last year, Skrillex was one of the main attractions at Coachella; last month, Deadmau5 ended up on the cover of Rolling Stone; last week, Kaskade became the first electronic act to sell out the Staples Center in Los Angeles.

“I think mainly people were just ready to hear something new,” says Kaskade. “My parents listened to rock and roll; that’s their music. And then hip-hop came along. This is the next generation of music.”

Just as international recognition enriched the likes of The Beatles, The Bee Gees, Aerosmith, Nirvana and Jay-Z, EDM’s practitioners have been cleaning up of late, prompting FORBES to release its first-ever Electronic Cash Kings list. Over the past 12 months, the world’s ten highest-paid DJs pulled in $125 million—more than the payroll of the Los Angeles Lakers.

Dutch born DJ Tiesto tops the list with earnings of $22 million, buoyed by an average nightly gross of $250,000 according to concert data provider Pollstar. Grammy-winning California native Skrillex ranks second with $15 million, followed by Scandinavian trio Swedish House Mafia, which recently disbanded despite pulling in an estimated $14 million.
 
Yup. There's money. The guys i was talking about are just small timers.

But think of this, in movies and tv almost all of the club scenes have a DJ.......not a band.
Sad for musicians, but actual live music is kind of rare.

I think in part, some musician's animosity towards DJs has to do with economics. One makes money, one doesn't
 
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I gotz to tell ya...I'm a bit blown away at how big the whole EDM movement has gotten and how much the heavyweights make... I've copied and pasted a 2012 Forbes article below (WTF no ad block bitching this time :D ) ....4 years later I'd bet the numbers have quadrupled... so a smidge more than $200 to $2k a gig....

they are making way more than that, I know that top DJ's make at least £5000 a night through inside information, from a musician I know who used to play with one of the biggest DJ's here in the UK, the guy I know who played with him made quite a bit as well per gig, but it was a pittance compared to what the DJ made.
 
I think in part, some musician's animosity towards DJs has to do with economics. One makes money, one doesn't

Maybe. I think actual musicians resent DJs being called musicians because DJs are talentless hacks while most musicians have spent years and years honing an actual skill. Not that DJ'ing isn't a skill, but it's less a skill than actually playing instruments.

Notice, musicians don't care if you call a DJ a DJ. They only care when you start calling them musicians.
 
I gotz to tell ya...I'm a bit blown away at how big the whole EDM movement has gotten and how much the heavyweights make... I've copied and pasted a 2012 Forbes article below (WTF no ad block bitching this time :D ) ....4 years later I'd bet the numbers have quadrupled... so a smidge more than $200 to $2k a gig....

the artcile sounds a bit out of touch! EDM started becoming popular in the late 80s and was mainstream in Europe by the early 90s!
 
the artcile sounds a bit out of touch! EDM started becoming popular in the late 80s and was mainstream in Europe by the early 90s!

I used the article to illustrate the money making power of being a DJ today...I would say his timeline was pretty vague and left a lot out.

But the money stats...damn!

What we call EDM in 2016 i.e. what you see at one of the Electric Daisy Carnivals is a whole new world compared to what was being done in the 80's / 90's.. There were disc jokeys really spinning records and a handful of guys experimenting with drum machines and sequencers back then but what we see today requires sophisticated software that didn't exist until the late 90's / early 2000's
 
he seems to have mastered that guitar playing thing, eh?

Ya know shredding can be done tastefully..... Here's a video of a jam I did a few years back with the guitarist I played with when we was young and our hearts were an open book... Boy can play guitar kind of exceptionally... If you want to skip right to what I consider the best part it starts @ 4 minutes and rips for the next minute and a half or so. It was an impromptu jam for a friend who was going down to lung cancer...asked if we'd do a jam for him before he had to exit...it was unrehearsed we just got together and winged it through several tunes.


 
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I used the article to illustrate the money making power of being a DJ today...I would say his timeline was pretty vague and left a lot out.

But the money stats...damn!

What we call EDM in 2016 i.e. what you see at one of the Electric Daisy Carnivals is a whole new world compared to what was being done in the 80's / 90's.. There were disc jokeys really spinning records and a handful of guys experimenting with drum machines and sequencers back then but what we see today requires sophisticated software that didn't exist until the late 90's / early 2000's

Do a bit of reading up on the rave scene in Europe. EDM really has been massive for 25 years.
 
Do a bit of reading up on the rave scene in Europe. EDM really has been massive for 25 years.

Before you mentioned previously, I was under the impression...as an American that EDM was a relatively new term and I guess it is...When I looked into I discovered that "They" (people on the internets) are implying that EDM started as early as the late 60's...personally never heard the term here in the states until the late 2000's which makes sense because that's about when the American music industry and music media started using it as a buzzword to describe the genre.

So as to the history...It is really hard to get a precise "history" as it seems there are quite a bit of varying opinions as to what EDM is and when it started...below are few sites that go in depth...and don't all coincide....rather than repost what they say here are the links


History of EDM


EDM history


Stop calling EDM EDM!
From which I grabbed the flow chart below....

MTMzNzAxMTUzMjI0NDAzNTg3.png
 
before you mentioned previously, i was under the impression...as an american that edm was a relatively new term and i guess it is...when i looked into i discovered that "they" (people on the internets) are implying that edm started as early as the late 60's...personally never heard the term here in the states until the late 2000's which makes sense because that's about when the american music industry and music media started using it as a buzzword to describe the genre.

lolomg
 
So you've noticed that EDM is a term much like "Rock" there are a LOT of subgenres. In this case the subgenres would have arrived before the catch-all term EDM was coined.

The short version is that Walter/Wendy Carlos started experimenting with it in the 60s when the tech just started to become available. Kraftwerk ran with it in the 70s. Acid House kicked off in the 80s, which lead to the rave scene and the the Ibiza scene which was in full swing by the late 80s.
 
So you've noticed that EDM is a term much like "Rock" there are a LOT of subgenres. In this case the subgenres would have arrived before the catch-all term EDM was coined.

Agreed. And nobody actually uses the term EDM outside of probably some industry types - like nobody describes themselves as an EDM DJ or an EDM fan, they're into techno/house/deep-house/ambient/acid house etc. Probably because there's likely almost zero crossover appeal between fans of happy hardcore and ambient for example.
 
Agreed. And nobody actually uses the term EDM outside of probably some industry types - like nobody describes themselves as an EDM DJ or an EDM fan, they're into techno/house/deep-house/ambient/acid house etc. Probably because there's likely almost zero crossover appeal between fans of happy hardcore and ambient for example.

I don't think there's much crossover between fans of Happy Hardcore and Music.
 
Agreed. And nobody actually uses the term EDM outside of probably some industry types - like nobody describes themselves as an EDM DJ or an EDM fan, they're into techno/house/deep-house/ambient/acid house etc. Probably because there's likely almost zero crossover appeal between fans of happy hardcore and ambient for example.

they only say EDM in the USA, I have found it's an american thing more than a english thing, they just love meta genre's.
 
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