The headphone dilemma

Speakers and an isolated room are the only way to get really good mixes. I suggest you network and find a friend who would do your mixes for you as you listen on their system (that's the way all music used to be recorded) But if you do get speakers, never mix at high volumes. Headphones are great for tracking. And you can mix on them but then you have to take the mixes around to all the other environments (you would have to do that anyway) and readjust them. Here's a hint: Headphones are often bass heavy to make them sound better, so be sure to leave that low frequency sound in the mix or it will sound wimpy on speakers. Good Luck,
Rod Norman
Engineer

I know I shouldn't mix using headphones, and I understand why I shouldn't use them. But here are two reasons why I probably will anyway:

-Recording music is just something I do for fun in my very limited free time--hopefully I can do it well enough to create something that will impress my friends, but I'm not expecting anything beyond that. Creating music definitely isn't something I would budget more than about $20 for at this point. So, even a low-end pair of studio monitors (at about $150) is out of my budget by an order of magnitude.

-I really only get time to work on music late at night when I don't want to wake my daughter (or my neighbors for that matter). To an outside observer it has to be basically silent.

I figure a lot of people here must be in a similar situation, so I'm curious if anyone's found a workaround that doesn't involve spending money you don't have and/or pissing people off. Because after all, I would like to at least try to do this mixing stuff properly.

Apologies if issues like these have already been decidedly settled elsewhere--just please send a link if you don't mind.
 
I've been were you are at man, new baby and, the only person in the house making any money. I tried every cheap or free thing I could think of before I even considered spending money. None of it worked. Not one little bit. The best I ever was able to achieve was mixes that proved to my wife, that my buddy's and I weren't just hanging out smoking pot all night, when I could have been at home helping out with the little one. Mind you those mixes never sounded good in any way shape or form.

The more I got into recording the cheaper I got too. I used to hang my mics from the ceiling with kite string because I couldn't afford mic stands. Mind you this was back in the early 90's and, I was recording on a Fostex X-28H 4 track cassette based system that I bought used at a pawn shop for $150 without my wife's permission and, slept on the couch for a week over it. Which by the way was a step up from the tape deck that I, plugged a Radio Shack DJ mixer, into the RCA inputs. I won't even get into the convoluted method I cooked up for doing multiple tracks because, at the end of the day it all sounded like ass. Never mattered to me that it sounded like crap because I was having a ton of fun doing it. I was writing songs with my best friend and, having a grand old time coming up with clever ways to do things for free.

Cut to 20 years later and I'm making more money and have a lot better toys. I learned a whole lot along the way, most of it in a time before the internet and, forums like this were even available to me. The one thing I've learned to be true is that there are certain things you are going to have to spend money on. If you don't have it right now find a way to save for it. There is almost always a way. My ex wife and, I came up with a compromise that allowed me to get a few things. All the change leftover from daily purchases got put in a jar and, was mine to spend. I even took a couple of lawn mowing jobs in the summer to pay for my first decent set of headphones. If you want it bad enough you'll find a way to make it happen. My friend and I used to go down to the park and, play with a tip jar just to have money to buy blank tapes with.

The guys here in this forum are correct when they tell you that mixing on headphones doesn't work. Headphones are great for tracking but, for mixing it just doesn't work. Your mixes will NEVER translate, EVER. You can mix on your car stereo if you want, something I applaud you for even coming up with. Hell if I had had that option back in the day I would have given it a shot. But knowing what I know now, I know that those mixes will not translate to other playback systems. But like my ignoramus 20 years old son and, me when I was younger, you too must learn things for yourself. Probably like most idiotic young men, you'll do it the hard way. I mean no offense by that but, I long ago realized that I was a flaming idiot at that age and, that most people of the male persuasion generally are too.

Anyways, sit back take a breathe and evaluate your situation. Figure out what you need. You don't need the best set of monitors money can buy. You just need something that you can work on. You can upgrade later. As far as not being able to mix out loud. Rubbish. You can listen to the TV while everyone is sleeping can't you? Well then you can mix out loud while they sleep too. There is no need to buy the loudest set of monitors on the market. You can get a set of M-Audio AV 40's for about $150 new and, probably find them used for about $50. Are they the best monitors in the world? Not by any means. Are they better then mixing on $20 headphones? You bet they are.

It's been my experience that the only people who make excuses for not getting what they want, are people who don't really want it in the first place. They just want to bitch about not being able to get it. Like I said before, I was 25 years old and I went out and knocked on my neighbors doors to ask if they wanted their lawns mowed so I could buy gear. I also shoveled snow in the winter. If you want it man you will find a way.
 
Good advice. I think borrowing gear from my friends is going to be my best option--don't know why I hadn't thought of it before (guess I just forgot).
A few points for clarity, though:

-My wife isn't skeptical or unsupportive of what I'm doing, we just both realize that my music recording isn't as important as a whole list of other things that take precedence when there's cashflow (savings, medical bills, etc.). As I've said, I'll just be happy if I can show my friends something that will impress them. I don't need to prove anything to my wife. (I'm kinda surprised by how many people seem to have wives who are plain antagonistic!)

-We actually can't watch TV when the baby's sleeping, at least not yet. We have to put on some white noise in her room, close her door, then hang out downstairs and whisper. We don't even run the dishwasher until just before we go to bed. I guess most babies don't start sleeping more heavily at night until they're about a year old. So, mixing out loud at home actually is off-limits, at least for now.

-My background is in the film industry, where you can in fact do a lot with very little these days if you know a few tricks. So, I'm biased to think there's analogous tips in music recording. Maybe I'm wrong?

You're not the first person who's said I can track with headphones and then do mixes later. That's very encouraging. If I can lay all my tracks down now and get each one sounding as good as I can, I don't mind letting the project sit in my computer for a bit while I look around for a friend to help me mix it, or who'll let me come over and use his system now and then. I have set myself a deadline, but it's comfortable and so far I'm ahead of schedule.

Is the main issue with mixing with headphones the lack of delayed crossbleed between channels into each ear that you'd normally get from listening to monitors?
 
We actually can't watch TV when the baby's sleeping, at least not yet. We have to put on some white noise in her room, close her door, then hang out downstairs and whisper. We don't even run the dishwasher until just before we go to bed. I guess most babies don't start sleeping more heavily at night until they're about a year old. So, mixing out loud at home actually is off-limits, at least for now.

Seriously? I've seen some ridiculous stuff in my time but that is incredible. Being quite now won't help in the long run, it'll just make it harder to make any noise at all. You can't talk in case you wake the baby? Wow!

You should get making noise and get your children used to those noises early.
 
Funny thing about babies. There are some that are not bothered by noise when they're tired. With my first kid, we tried all the silence and tip toeing around and found that he was super sensitive to even a floorboard creaking. Second time around, we stopped all that and just lived as normal. And the second one never woke up due to noise. I used to stay up for 6 and 7 hours during the night catching up on stuff I'd taped with him right next to me and he never used to wake up.
Of course all children are different but I think by being ultra quiet, we sensitize them to even little sounds whereas if they were used to sound and noise from the start, you'd be able to watch telly and talk, not whisper.
As for headphone mixing, I'm not an advocate of the "never mix with headphones" philosophy. "Never" is far too absolute a word for me on this topic. But I do believe that you need to be able to mix with speakers, even ordinary stereo speakers. Kind of the way I think one should be able to record with a click and without one. You don't have to mix loud at all, unless you want to.
 
Good advice. I think borrowing gear from my friends is going to be my best option--don't know why I hadn't thought of it before (guess I just forgot).
A few points for clarity, though:

-My wife isn't skeptical or unsupportive of what I'm doing, we just both realize that my music recording isn't as important as a whole list of other things that take precedence when there's cashflow (savings, medical bills, etc.). As I've said, I'll just be happy if I can show my friends something that will impress them. I don't need to prove anything to my wife. (I'm kinda surprised by how many people seem to have wives who are plain antagonistic!)

-We actually can't watch TV when the baby's sleeping, at least not yet. We have to put on some white noise in her room, close her door, then hang out downstairs and whisper. We don't even run the dishwasher until just before we go to bed. I guess most babies don't start sleeping more heavily at night until they're about a year old. So, mixing out loud at home actually is off-limits, at least for now.

-My background is in the film industry, where you can in fact do a lot with very little these days if you know a few tricks. So, I'm biased to think there's analogous tips in music recording. Maybe I'm wrong?

You're not the first person who's said I can track with headphones and then do mixes later. That's very encouraging. If I can lay all my tracks down now and get each one sounding as good as I can, I don't mind letting the project sit in my computer for a bit while I look around for a friend to help me mix it, or who'll let me come over and use his system now and then. I have set myself a deadline, but it's comfortable and so far I'm ahead of schedule.

Is the main issue with mixing with headphones the lack of delayed crossbleed between channels into each ear that you'd normally get from listening to monitors?
You can definitely track with headphones -- I do, and I suspect many, if not most, do as well. For tracking, you need only hear what you're playing (or singing), along with the backing tracks. If you're recording acoustic instruments or voice, you have to use headphones for tracking so that the backing tracks don't get picked up by the live mike(s).

One point about film making: yes, you can do a lot with a little, but there is still a minimum gear threshold. No one can shoot a film with a consumer camcorder from Sears right out of the box. At minimum, you'll need some kind of rig that allows for mounting lenses, adds mechanics to pull focus, etc. You can get by with a solid tripod with a fluid head, but not with cheap amateur friction head tripods. And, of course, a hi-def compressed-video consumer camcorder isn't going to produce video that looks the same as 4K or even 2K. Independent films that are shot with prosumer gear use the camera primarily as an imaging head and, without being tricked out with a fair amount of additional gear, won't produce an image that looks like anything other than consumer camcorder video.

Sure, lots of made-for-TV and direct-to-DVD projects are shot with Canon 5Ds, and now you can buy 4K cameras for less than 1/10th the cost of their studio counterparts. You can grade and edit what you shoot in Avid, Final Cut Pro or Premiere. You can even do fairly sophisticated compositing on a typical desktop computer. However, what you can do is produce a film shot with a $300 consumer camcorder and edited on an iPad (unless that is the "look" that you specifically want).

Audio is no different -- there is still a minimum threshold for gear. If you want DOF effects in what you shoot, you either need a dSLR or a DOF adapter that requires additional lenses. Otherwise, it will never look like film. For audio, you need monitors to mix with or it will never sound like professionally-mixed and mastered audio. Both requirements are the result of the physics of light and sound, and there's no getting around physics.

Yes, you can produce a reasonable sound with a $100 microphone, instead of a $3,000 one. You can track with $20 headphones instead of $1,000 ones. You can record and mix with an average desktop or laptop computer -- you don't need a five-figure mixing console with dedicated recording hardware. But you still need the mike, the phones and the computer. And to mix and master, you still need monitors instead of phones.

Using a friend's setup is a good idea. You can also bring your tracks to a professional studio and mix there (I know of a lot of musicians who do that). However, mixing with monitors is one of those basic tasks that separate a reasonable recording from something amateur-sounding, home-produced work.
 
Get something louder for the room the baby sleeps in. We use a big humidifier that is pretty damn loud, it covers most sounds we can make in the house. Like people said, all babies are different... but if the baby can't hear you downstairs over the humidifier (or whatever), baby can't wake up. We live in a really small house, and we can still talk, watch TV, strum on my electric guitar (on headphones), all that jazz. Our 8 month old is our first, so we are guilty of bending too much for baby, but damn man, you can't even watch TV? That's extreme. I'd suggest a louder noise in her/ his room. If not for recording, just for life. Whispering gets old.

We have this: Holmes Console Humidifier with Bonus Filter : Target
 
So far I've gotten some solid advice on this issue. I want to ask everyone now, more specifically, what all you'd say is okay to do with headphones. Tracking, obviously--it's basically required if you're doing anything involving a mic. But what about EQing, tweaking effects, etc.? Are monitors basically only really a hard necessity the stereo mix, or for other stuff too?
 
Headphones can give you a false 'view' of what things sound like, due to the proximity of the transducers to your ears and the frequency response of them. They are good to hear some of the background details you might not hear with nearfields (like false notes, vocal breaths or throat clears or background noises).
 
So far I've gotten some solid advice on this issue. I want to ask everyone now, more specifically, what all you'd say is okay to do with headphones. Tracking, obviously--it's basically required if you're doing anything involving a mic. But what about EQing, tweaking effects, etc.? Are monitors basically only really a hard necessity the stereo mix, or for other stuff too?

You can actually do whatever you want with headphones. Is it ideal? No, but they're better than mixing in a fucking car.

The thing is though, in reality, you can mix on any damn kind of speaker once you learn how it translates to the rest of the world. That will require you to mix, check elsewhere, tweak, check again, tweak, etc over and over and over until you learn how to listen with your own method. Eventually, you could very realistically get to a point that you know your own shitty monitoring setup so well that you could make a decent mix with it. The beauty of actual monitors and a treated mixing environment is that getting mixes to translate elsewhere happens way easier and way sooner with less trial-and-error. It's not lip-service. That's one area of home recording that pretty much everyone from every style of music production and genre of music can agree on. Monitors moving air in a treated environment makes for better mixes, and you get it done much easier and much faster. What might take you 100 tries to get right through your car speakers or headphones might only take two mixes with decent monitors and a treated room. But yeah, you could theoretically also make good mixes monitoring through an iphone eventually.
 
You can actually do whatever you want with headphones. Is it ideal? No, but they're better than mixing in a fucking car.

The thing is though, in reality, you can mix on any damn kind of speaker once you learn how it translates to the rest of the world. That will require you to mix, check elsewhere, tweak, check again, tweak, etc over and over and over until you learn how to listen with your own method. Eventually, you could very realistically get to a point that you know your own shitty monitoring setup so well that you could make a decent mix with it. The beauty of actual monitors and a treated mixing environment is that getting mixes to translate elsewhere happens way easier and way sooner with less trial-and-error. It's not lip-service. That's one area of home recording that pretty much everyone from every style of music production and genre of music can agree on. Monitors moving air in a treated environment makes for better mixes, and you get it done much easier and much faster. What might take you 100 tries to get right through your car speakers or headphones might only take two mixes with decent monitors and a treated room. But yeah, you could theoretically also make good mixes monitoring through an iphone eventually.

Thanks, very helpful.
 
Headphones can give you a false 'view' of what things sound like, due to the proximity of the transducers to your ears and the frequency response of them. They are good to hear some of the background details you might not hear with nearfields (like false notes, vocal breaths or throat clears or background noises).

Interesting, good to know. Yeah, I've noticed I can often pick up little details with headphones that I miss through speakers. That's why I used to use headphones to edit VO back in my film industry years.

So would you say it's advisable to use headphones for editing (esp. vocals) and then use monitors to add effects/amp sims/etc.?
 
Probably would spend a lot of time using the headphones getting things arranged the way you want them, then as you're doing the final mix down, use the monitors for final processing. I find after getting good monitors and decent room I use mainly the monitors, and check headphones every once in awhile. But that is mainly cause wearing the headphones over a long period of time is more taxing than listening to the speakers.

But I think once you get to that point, it is just a matter of personal workflow. But your final mix should be from the monitors to reduce mixing issues in various listening environments and systems.
 
So would you say it's advisable to use headphones for editing (esp. vocals) and then use monitors to add effects/amp sims/etc.?

No, just use one method for everything. If you wanna use headphones for very fine details, cool, but it's best not to think of one for one thing, and the other for other things. What's likely gonna happen is you'll be tweaking back and forth. What if the kick drum sounds great in cans but shitty through speakers? What are you gonna believe?
 
No, just use one method for everything. If you wanna use headphones for very fine details, cool, but it's best not to think of one for one thing, and the other for other things. What's likely gonna happen is you'll be tweaking back and forth. What if the kick drum sounds great in cans but shitty through speakers? What are you gonna believe?

Ok, gotcha.
 
I use headphones on performers while tracking, to check those cue mixes and toward the end of a mix to check and fine tune the panning.
 
This thread reminded me I gotta buy some new headphones lol.

I'm in the same sorta boat as the op. I have 2 young kids, not a whole lot of free cash and have to do all my tracking after every one goes to bed.

I can say though that mixing is no problem with the volume level needed to get a decent mix. I use head phones a lot for tracking and doing some rough mixing. I would never make any final decisions on tone or mix. Been there before when I first started and it just doesn't work well.

Side note: first kid we tip toed around and we were dead quiet while she slept. 2nd kid now and we do what ever. The older kid runs up and down the hall, tv blasting we've even Vacuumed right outside his room.

Sure the kids have a little to do with it but I think it was more us causing it with the first child looking back.
 
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