Question on Mixing Heavy Rhythms and the stereo spectrum

Well,
I'm glad to see everyone's responses, but let's chill out a bit and not turn this into a thread of bashing someone's methods for doing something.
The mid-side approach given seems complicated and I honestly will not have time to make the arrangement and experiment as such for an entire project, but it did open the door to try using a mid-side eq on the rhythm guitar buss which ended up being quite interesting. See, even with one guitar panned hard left and another hard right, when you solo the mid section of the mid-side eq, you can still hear quite a bit of both guitars. EQ'ing the mid a little bit to remove some frequencies helped open up the center of the mix and any instruments playing therein. I'm talking just a touch of eq on fighting frequencies. Nothing crazy.
 
Check out the Branworx plugs.....they have a few great plugs that also will easily do M/S processing (bx control, bx dynEQ, bx digital) making it as simple as "turn nobs, and A/B" until you find something that sounds good to you.

Plus....they are on sale at Audio Deluxe right now.
 
illimmigrant said:
See, even with one guitar panned hard left and another hard right, when you solo the mid section of the mid-side eq, you can still hear quite a bit of both guitars.
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That happens because the 'mid' is just the sum of both the left and the right.

Your main difficulty with things fighting for space is that they are all built up in that same spot in the midrange. If all the instruments had different sonic structures to them, there would be plenty of space for everything.
 
In fact, now that I think about it, adding a mid-side plug may cloud up the middle more, since the 'mid' is a mono sum of the two sides. You might be adding something that wasn't there in the first place, effectively panning the two guitars in a little bit.

Not by a DAW to confirm this, but it would seem so.
 
Farview said:
In fact, now that I think about it, adding a mid-side plug may cloud up the middle more, since the 'mid' is a mono sum of the two sides. You might be adding something that wasn't there in the first place, effectively panning the two guitars in a little bit.

Not by a DAW to confirm this, but it would seem so.
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Mmmmm....it may depend on what the type of M/S processing and on what it's being applied to....but I've used a couple of the plugs I mentioned, and there are certainly options that work really well on stereo sources, and the fact that you can just process the Mid or just the Side....there wasn't any "clouding". I mean, it really depends where/how you set things with the processing.
 
If you have two guitar parts panned wide, you really don't have stereo, you have dual mono because the two are completely isolated. If you add center information that isnt there, it defeats the purpose of having the two panned hard.

In other words, there is no mid information when two separatw tracks are panned wide.
 
Well....he was talking about a "mix" and the width of its stereo spread in his first post....so my assumption was that he asked how to widen the guitars and focus the center elements of the mix...not just how to manipulate the two single guitar tracks.
 
Farview said:
If you have two guitar parts panned wide, you really don't have stereo, you have dual mono because the two are completely isolated. If you add center information that isnt there, it defeats the purpose of having the two panned hard.

In other words, there is no mid information when two separatw tracks are panned wide.
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This is interesting. In a way, when I slapped on the mid/side EQ on my rhythm bus, I expected to hear nothing when I soloe'd the "mid" since I have both mono guitar tracks panned hard left and right. Conversely, I expected to hear both guitar tones normally when I soloe'd the "side", but that isn't the case either. The frequencies are still spread around the stereo field. I don't know the theory behind it, or why it happens, but I suppose if you heard nothing in the "center" the mix would sound super weird. Has anyone tried this or am I doing something wrong in tracking?
 
I could very well be talking out my ass here, since I can't test it out right now. But with normal mid/side, the mid is the sum of the left and right and the side is the difference between the left and right. L+R=mid. L-R=side.

Never mind. While I was typing that out, it just hit me that it doesn't work the way I was thinking. Disregard, nothing to see here.
 
illimmigrant said:
This is interesting. In a way, when I slapped on the mid/side EQ on my rhythm bus, I expected to hear nothing when I soloe'd the "mid" since I have both mono guitar tracks panned hard left and right. Conversely, I expected to hear both guitar tones normally when I soloe'd the "side", but that isn't the case either. The frequencies are still spread around the stereo field. I don't know the theory behind it, or why it happens, but I suppose if you heard nothing in the "center" the mix would sound super weird. Has anyone tried this or am I doing something wrong in tracking?
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Have you tired applying any kind of M/S processing to the whole mix....not just portions of the mix?
Where you then use it to widen out the Side components, and tighten the Mid, and/or apply different EQ to the Side VS the Mid...etc...of the whole mix.
 
Greg_L said:
Yes you are if you're having to jump through all of these hoops just for guitar tracks.
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From what I could tell, he is tracking it just fine. He is simply getting caught up in the notion that you have to process the crap out of everything in order for it to be 'professional' sounding.

There is nothing wrong with any of the techniques used, but they are not all necessary all the time.

For example, I have used a multi-band compressor to beat back excessive low end jumping out on palm mutes. But I've only ever had to do that when someone was recording through some boss pedal or some POS digitech 2101 or something like that. Never when an amp was recorded with a microphone.

I only ever low pass guitars when I was given something that was a direct recorded thing using something cheap or old. Never with an amp through a mic or something upscale and new, like an Axeffects.

That is kind of what is making me think that the OP is applying solutions to problems that he really doesn't have...Or he naturally dials in a tone that doesn't record well, then sets about fixing it.
 
Greg_L said:
I'm gonna wear this thing out before the week is through....:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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:thumbs up::thumbs up::thumbs up::thumbs up::thumbs up: Don't make things harder than they actually are. Sometimes people get so caught-up in the minutia, they out-smart themselves. Find some producers who's work you admire, listen closely to works of theirs that you enjoy, find out the steps they took to produce the aforementioned works, then repeat those steps. This really isn't rocket science! Don't out-smart yourself! Good luck!
 
Steenamaroo said:
Someone's going to have to explain this to me......:p
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What are you not understanding? The mistake is assuming that there is one specific process that makes something professional sounding, and as long as go through that motion, it will be 'professional'.

As in, no matter what the original tracks sound like, as long as you high and low pass it, put a multiband compressor on it, suck out 6db of 800hz, and put a stereo widener on it, it will always sound professional.
 
I usually don't do anything to my guitar tracks. Not an EQ cut or boost or compressor to be found. I'm totally unprofessional.
 
Farview said:
What are you not understanding? The mistake is assuming that there is one specific process that makes something professional sounding, and as long as go through that motion, it will be 'professional'.

As in, no matter what the original tracks sound like, as long as you high and low pass it, put a multiband compressor on it, suck out 6db of 800hz, and put a stereo widener on it, it will always sound professional.
Click to expand...

Whoa...I was kidding man.
Thanks though. :)
 
Greg_L said:
Yes you are if you're having to jump through all of these hoops just for guitar tracks.
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That's not what I meant, but for having posted several times on this thread it's amazing that you haven't contributed one bit to answering the original question. Maybe using high and low pass filters seems over complicated if you don't use any eq on guitars, but who seriously thinks they can capture a tone that will sit exactly how you want it to in a mix? Be it guitars, or else.

If your (or anyone else's tip) is to capture a better signal going in, so be it. And that's great if you record your own stuff. When you're given a project to mix, you work with what you got, and I'm after the techniques that help open up a mix a bit. Maybe it's less buss compression, mid/side balancing, better eq, etc. maybe it's using a lower tuned snare so the stick attack doesn't land right where the bite of the guitars is, helping it cut through better, maybe it's all those things, I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

Thanks all again.
 
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