XY vs. Spaced Pair overheads

F

fenix

New member
I just want to start off by saying that I've almost always used spaced pair overheads and have NEVER had any phase issues.

People say that with XY you'll have less phase issues. Doesn't this only apply when both mics are panned center? If i'm correct you will not incur any phase problems because the sound is hitting the mics at the same time. If you hard pan them you will not get any phase issues at all as well.

So what's wrong with spaced pair? I personally like the stereo image of my overheads to be WIDE so I use a spaced pair hard panned. If I check them in mono, sometimes I do get phase issuess, but I always hard pan them.

So does the issue of phase problems with overheads only apply when overheads are panned center? Is it possible to have phase problems when your overheads are hard panned?
 
This is more of a physics thing - Me no speaka physics good, but I'll give it a shot.

With a spaced pair, you WILL have phase issues. Whether it's a phase "PROBLEM" is subjective... Look at Zepplin...

And yes, the "problems" don't become apparent until the mix goes to mono or heavy radio compression.

That being the case, what I "normally" do is an XY pair at first - If I want the "Super Spacious Special" I can then manipulate the "distance" at the track level.

You can also fix spaced-pair problems this way...

Of course, if you like it and it works for you, continue. I just sort of like the XY for the general sound... I don't like being too close to the cymbals, and I DO like the "roundness" factor that an XY pair gives to the kit.

John Scrip - www.massivemastering.com
 
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I tried XY on my last recording and the drums just sounded mono. Hardly any imaging at all.

Any general tips on it? I had them (mxl603s into an M12 board) about 2 feet above the drummers head Angled at the kit.
 
Think "natural" as opposed to "mono" -

Anyway, you can increase the angle - Try around 110 degrees...

If you're in a DAW, try nudging the tracks out of time a bit. Obviously, you're inviting the same "issues" that a spaced pair will have, but you'll have pretty solid control over it.

John -
 
One overlooked issue with mono compatability is that once you get farther away from the speakers then they are from each other you start getting a mostly mono sound image.

If you have a lot of phase cancellation in the OH's you can also get some weird issues with surround decoders. The OH's will end up being sent to the far sides with nothing in the middle and the drums become very wimpy sounding.
 
ChristopherDawn said:
I tried XY on my last recording and the drums just sounded mono. Hardly any imaging at all.

Any general tips on it? I had them (mxl603s into an M12 board) about 2 feet above the drummers head Angled at the kit.
Click to expand...

603's are 'wide cardioids'. XY works best with hyper cardioid mics.
I never use XY because I don't like the stereo image.

If you place the OH mics high above the drumkit, try a NOS pair (angle 90 deg, capsules 30 cm apart). If you place them closer to the kit, try an ORTF pair (angle 110 deg, 17 cm apart.

ORTF gives a very realistic stereo image and there will be no phase problem.(between the two OH mics that is)

You have to take care tho, for there can be a phase problem between the OH's and the snare or kick mic. This happens with any placement, sometimes moving the OH's an inch up or down can help. Check your sounds in solo and listen what happens when you add the OH's to the snare or kick sound.
 
Please describe the phase issue from a spaced pair.

Given: both mics are *exactly* equidistant from the kick, and equidistant from the snare. Toms, snare, kick, hat are all close miced.

Where is the phase issue, please? As a newb, I'd like to know this.
 
Any time you have sounding hitting two mics at differnt times, certain frequencies will be out of phase to varying degrees. The frequency and degree depend on the the sound. If your kick & snare are perfectly spaced, then the kick and the snare won't have phase issues. Everything else, the toms, the cymbals, etc., will to "some degree."

Again, this is basically normal for the most part - It's all in "how much" and "how strange" - There are plenty of cool tricks that you can do by throwing tracks out of phase. The whole concept of MS is basically a phasing tool. Following certain guidelines (XY, ORTF, the 3:1 rule, etc.) help keep the problems in check.

My personal reasons for the XY preference on overheads is the spread... Many recordings that used spaced pair overheads have an exaggerated stereo image. It sounds like you're actually sitting behind a drum kit that's 8 feet wide. To me, that's just not what a drum kit actually sounds like. Unless, of course, you're sitting behind the kit with both your ears pulled 4 feet away from your head. :eek:

If you try to narrow the width by panning in, that's where the phase problems come in. Using an XY set at the start gives you the option of a natural width stereo image. As a kit's layout is essentially a horizontal parabola, you can pick a focal point (normally above or near the drummer's head) that is basically centered "inside" the kit. The image is more natural, without the inherent phase problems, and you can still adjust it if you want. Also, the sense of actual distance is preserved - Instead of a ride cymbal in one ear and a hi-hat in the other, the cymbals are "over there" and "over here."

JS -
 
Thanks for the lucid explanation.

I'll have to do an A/B session between spaced and X/Y to see which one more suits my taste.
 
Hey fenix - this is more of a 'repair' thing if you need it. Voxengo just released a phase adjustment VST plug in (oops you're Pro Tools aren't you - will that work ?).

http://voxengo.com/pha979/

Anyway for $40 is surely cheaper than the hardware one I saw that rings in at a few hundred.
 
Han - yes I saw that thread a while back.

I'll probably end up testing the Voxengo thing out myself at some point - there's a demo of it available. The developer over there is real good and supports his products so if he has something that doesn't work as advertised he'll work on it till it does.
 
I've posted several clips in the Drums threads using Modified Spaced Micing versus more normal Spaced and Coincident. I think the Modified Micing has more depth and imaging and it puts the Snare and Kick in the center.

Here's the thread
 


That is a "Modified Spaced Pair" the Recorderman method with a FOK about 3' out.

The overheads are Oktava MK012s. The FOK is a CAD M37. The were recorded through Behringer pres (on a mixer) into an M-Audio delta 1010 using Sonar. There is some compression added.

The kit is a 3 piece KC DrumWorks kit with Zildjian cymbals.

I like the Recorderman method because of the ease of making a large sound and the naturalness of it all. I like to approach drums as a kit not as individual drums.
 
I agree on the Recorderman method. It adds depth. Although, I like a more in your face tom and kick... so I usually add some close mics from the toms and kick.
 
you want spaciousness in your recordings? get some SPACE between your overheads and the kit my kind brother. You need a good sounding room though. In my autumn years I have reverted to good ol' xy as overheads, however I also tend to use a lot of room mics. I get my overheads high above the kit, like 9' or more. I'm lucky I have high ceilings, like a little over 30'. floating floors and the option to use the stone or wood side also come in handy. but i digress. in all levity I seriously have done excellent recordings with one single mic 30' away and in front the kit (with a touch of snare and kick mics) and it sounded "spacious" as hell.
 
sweetnubs said:
you want spaciousness in your recordings? get some SPACE between your overheads and the kit my kind brother. You need a good sounding room though. In my autumn years I have reverted to good ol' xy as overheads, however I also tend to use a lot of room mics. I get my overheads high above the kit, like 9' or more. I'm lucky I have high ceilings, like a little over 30'. floating floors and the option to use the stone or wood side also come in handy. but i digress. in all levity I seriously have done excellent recordings with one single mic 30' away and in front the kit (with a touch of snare and kick mics) and it sounded "spacious" as hell.
Click to expand...
Let's hear it...

Please include the excellent spacious mono mic...
 
sweetnubs said:
large volumes of moving air and room reflections my friend. Please refernce old jazz recordings.
Click to expand...
I am referring to clips of your work...
 
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