Writing vocals/lyrics for music

[SacredDespair]

What do you feel is the best way to go about writing vocals on top of music? For example, do you just hum something until it works or maybe play something on a piano until it fits? I was just looking for what everyone else does to write their vocals when the music is already finalized. Thanks for your help.

 

[Freddy]

Hmm.. I'm going to struggle with this one I think.

It's the words "write their vocals when the music is already finalized" that make it difficult for me. You see, I have never done that.

For me, the words and the music are partners, equal ingredients in a song. If anything, words are MORE important to me - but even they can't be finalized until the song is written. They (music and lyric) may need to adapt to work together.

Of course, it may be that someone else writes some music that is sacrosanct and the writer wants some words. I'm not sure if I could do that, but it would be interesting to try.

Part of me says that if the music IS the song and the words are really secondary, do they matter at all?

Maybe add some fashionable sounding but meaningless phrases to sound enigmatic and call the job done. Maybe the music is key (it probably is in some genres). After all, there was a hit in the UK way back called "Mouldy Old Dough". The lyrics were simply (you guessed it!) "mouldy old dough".. repeated. It worked.

However, it could be an interesting challenge. What is the song about? What is suggested by the music? Play it over and over to get an emotion from it.

Does a musical phrase stand out? If you repeat it over and over can some words come that just "fit"?

Write them down. Anything starting to spark? Be prepared to change them, but go with it. Write some more down. Hum over the song or phrase, burble out any old crap until something fits the feel.

You can do the "write down lots of 'cool' phrases on pieces of paper and shuffle them" trick.

Sooner or later, normally the song has to mean something by using lyrics that fit the musical feel. The vocal has to fit the music too.. it has to add something.. musically (see, I said it wasn't finalized )

Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you don't need a lyric at all. Sometimes something very brief is enough

"Je t'aime" for example.

What style are you talking about? Want to put up the music? I bet plenty of people would give you at least a phrase, some of which may trigger something...

 

[mikeh]

As a writer, the hardest thing I've ever tried to do was write lyrics to someone's completed melody (I never really felt my efforts were successful - nor did the composers, who never used my lyrics). While a piece of music may trigger an emotion or inspire a lyrical theme - the fact is 10 different writers may draw completely different things from a piece of music (which is indeed the beauty of art). I always found that whatever "theme" I found in the music was not the "theme" the composer envisioned when writing the melody.

In another thread, someone mentioned they write down anything interesting (examples could be - printed phrase, news headlines or over heard conversations that seem interesting) and he keeps them all in a box which he can refer to when looking for inspiration. This same person keeps micro recorders in his vehicles and in his house to capture any ideas, should the muse appear. These are both great ideas!

Personally, I do find that when I already have a chord progression established (from doodling at the guitar, piano, etc) I often start to hum some melody lines until something seems right - as I keep doing this, a single lyrical phrase will often present itself (maybe only a few words). Once I'm at that point - it simply becomes a matter of pursuing the traditional craft of songwriting to develop those ideas into something of substance (which may not always be easy - but that is what seperates a dedicated writer from a "wanna be").

I don't know if I can fully support Freddy's suggestion that music is the song and lyrics are secondary (or even that they don't matter). To a point, being a musician first and a songwriter second I can appreciate the importance of music - but to me, a well written lyric is just as wonderful as a beautiful melody or a creative chord progression.

I do agree that often, the words and music are partners (often created in large part, together) and that until the melodic, harmonic and rythmic parts are completed the lyrics really have no destination - or road to travel on.

SacredDespair, keep working at it and if you are sincere, the muse will be kind!!!

 

[Freddy]

I don't know if I can fully support Freddy's suggestion that music is the song and lyrics are secondary (or even that they don't matter).

Eeep! I must be more careful to be clear ... but I did say "IF the music is the song.. and lyrics are secondary" .. meaning that the only way I could see someone saying the music was finalized before any lyrics had been written would be if they felt that way.

I also said "For me, the words and the music are partners, equal ingredients in a song. If anything, words are MORE important to me - but even they can't be finalized until the song is written. They (music and lyric) may need to adapt to work together."

I am very much more a lyricist than a musician, which is why I found this one hard

Good ideas in there though - and your process sounds very similar to mine Mikeh! And that "traditional craft of songwriting" seems to get tougher as I get older and more fussy.. but I think that's a good thing. I enjoy the journey at least as much as (probably more than) the destination.

 

[mikeh]

Freddy - I stand corrected . It would appear I either misread of misunderstood your original post.

 

[tdukex]

Listen to the music. Then listen to it some more. What does it suggest? What key is it written in? What do the tempo and chord progression suggest? Is it fast, slow, meandering? Is it a standard rock I IV V progression or something more exotic? Is it hard driving with a lot of major chords? Or is it lilting with augmented or inverted chords? Is it in a minor key or are their minor chords to suggest something more dark and somber? Are there some 7ths in there to create tension?

How is the arrangement? What does it tell you? If there's a banjo in there you probably don't have a hard rock song--or a love ballad. Are there electric guitars? More than one? Do they growl, cluck, or sing? What are the other instruments doing(especially the drums)?

What is the spacing between the musical phrases? How much room is there for lyrics? Is there room for long lyrical lines or do the words need to come in short bursts? Will the verses need to be long or short? Are there musical hooks in the song that suggest a chorus?

Listen to the music.

Analyze the music.

Let it tell you the type/kind of song it yearns to be.

Then comes the hard part...

 

[DigitalSmigital]

I often start to hum some melody lines until something seems right - as I keep doing this, a single lyrical phrase will often present itself (maybe only a few words). Once I'm at that point - it simply becomes a matter of pursuing the traditional craft of songwriting to develop those ideas into something of substance (which may not always be easy - but that is what seperates a dedicated writer from a "wanna be").

Ouch! That one stung me, fella!

 

[32-20-Blues]

Listen to the music. Then listen to it some more. What does it suggest? What key is it written in? What do the tempo and chord progression suggest? Is it fast, slow, meandering? Is it a standard rock I IV V progression or something more exotic? Is it hard driving with a lot of major chords? Or is it lilting with augmented or inverted chords? Is it in a minor key or are their minor chords to suggest something more dark and somber? Are there some 7ths in there to create tension?

How is the arrangement? What does it tell you? If there's a banjo in there you probably don't have a hard rock song--or a love ballad.

Interesting angle to approach the problem from, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with it.

First of all, I don't fully understand what exactly the influence of a specific key can have on the lyrics of a song. As to whether it's a standard rock progression (basically a twelve bar) or not, well, I'm not sure I see exactly what that would immediately suggest. That can dictate that you write something as mindlessly inane as 'Rockin' All Over the World' (a lá Status Quo) or something as lyrically complex as a Bob Dylan tune. In fact, many of Dylan's more esoteric lines have been accompanied by that I-IV-V progression - 'From a Buick 6', 'It Takes a Lot to Laugh', 'Tombstone Blues', etc... Tom Wait's extremely poetic 'Shore Leave' is also a twelve bar. As for a banjo dictating that you don't have a love-ballad - Jesus, I've heard songs with banjo lines that would break your heart twice before the chorus.

 

[tdukex]

Interesting angle to approach the problem from, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with it.

First of all, I don't fully understand what exactly the influence of a specific key can have on the lyrics of a song. As to whether it's a standard rock progression (basically a twelve bar) or not, well, I'm not sure I see exactly what that would immediately suggest. That can dictate that you write something as mindlessly inane as 'Rockin' All Over the World' (a lá Status Quo) or something as lyrically complex as a Bob Dylan tune. In fact, many of Dylan's more esoteric lines have been accompanied by that I-IV-V progression - 'From a Buick 6', 'It Takes a Lot to Laugh', 'Tombstone Blues', etc... Tom Wait's extremely poetic 'Shore Leave' is also a twelve bar. As for a banjo dictating that you don't have a love-ballad - Jesus, I've heard songs with banjo lines that would break your heart twice before the chorus.

It's ok if you disagree. This method isn’t for everybody and won’t guarantee results, but I think you are misinterpreting the general point, which is: listen to the music, analyze its elements, and let it suggest the type of song(s) it could be. Could be. Any particular musical element may or may not be suggestive. May or may not. They don't dictate anything. Nothing in music is concrete or carved in stone. You can find exceptions to anything although seeking to do so narrows your point of view instead of opening it up to suggestions, which is what we are trying to do here.

Listening to and analyzing the music is an intuitive, logical, and effective approach to determining the type of lyrics that would suit it. It is also a common approach--not something I just dreamed up. If it doesn’t work for you, then it doesn’t work for you.

Keys can in fact have an influence on lyrics. For example, Cole Porter wrote a lot of music in Eb and Bb partly because those are good keys for horns, which are good lead/melody instruments for romantic, swing, and Jazz music and arrangements, which he excelled at. Yeah, you can write a rock song in Bb if you want to, but is it common? Does Bb and a clarinet suggest to you hard driving rock?

Chord progressions may or may not suggest the type(s) of song. Apart from blues and early Jazz progressions, the traditional I-IV-V sequence is not common in Jazz. OTOH, one of the most basic chord progressions for Jazz is I-VI-II-V. Yes, you can use that progression in most any style of music if you want to, but if it is in the content of a Jazz arrangement, you've got yourself a Jazz song. And most Jazz music, in my experience, is not suited to "I'm a young punk and angry at the entire world" style of lyrics. But I guess it could be done.

So you've heard songs with banjo lines that would break your heart twice before the chorus? It appears to me that you are again choosing to find exception in order to create an argument. I've heard Led Zeppelin done with bluegrass arrangements. It was done very professionally, but in jest. And when I (and I'll go out on a limb) most people hear a bluegrass arrangement, we are not envisioning Stairway To Heaven style of lyrics.

Again, I'm saying to simply listen to and analyze the music. That doesn't mean that every musical element will be telling or that the music will dictate only one particular type of lyric. It will help put you into the right arena, however.

Unless, of course, this method doesn’t agree with you.

 

[mikeh]

DigitalSmigital

I was not trying to sting you personally - I meant all the other wanna be's

To be serious - my point was meant to suggest there are many people who claim to be song writers or want to be song writers - but they are not willing to study the craft of writing (which often can seperate a good writer from an average writer).


tdukex

To a degree I can see your point that a key of a song can have some influence - certainly a major vs. a minor can set a general mode. Some melodies are bright and happy, some melodies are dark and moody. While I agree that traditionally horn songs are often written in flat keys - I think the song arrangement and the choice of instruments (and certainly the melody) has more impact on the mood of a song than the actual key.

It is indeed common for horn tunes to be written in flat keys (which could suggest R&B or jazz) and normally you would not expect country material to be in flat keys - however - I recently had to learn 2 tunes by Shania Twain for a showcase gig (a very country tune and a "country rock" tune), both were recorded in flat keys and I would be willing to bet that the songs were not originally written in flat keys - but were recorded in flat keys to accomodate the vocalist. So a flat key may not lend itself to a given mood/theme - and may simply be a good key for a singer.

I've been working with a good female vocalist and have written several country rock songs - which were originally writen in E or A or G or D (to take advantage of all the open chord country licks (at least the ones I know - but we will record them in different keys (in some cases flated keys) to serve the vocalist (the capo is my friend). Now the theme of the songs don't change - but the songs will not be in traditional "country" keys. The melody, the chord progressions and the song arrangements will still sound country.

That being said - your point about listening to the materiall and trying to analyze the mood is no doubt at the root of the issue and is key to trying to write to a complete melody. You are absolutely correct on that point. Naturally, 10 people can walk away with 10 different ideas about what a piece of music means.

Much as your suggested approach is neither right nor wrong - 10 different interpretations are neither right nor wrong - simply different views, different ways to approach an issue.

 

[32-20-Blues]

It appears to me that you are again choosing to find exception in order to create an argument.

If that's what you honestly think, then you have got me totally wrong.

 

[TelePaul]

It's ok if you disagree. This method isn’t for everybody and won’t guarantee results, but I think you are misinterpreting the general point, which is: listen to the music, analyze its elements, and let it suggest the type of song(s) it could be. Could be. Any particular musical element may or may not be suggestive. May or may not. They don't dictate anything. Nothing in music is concrete or carved in stone. You can find exceptions to anything although seeking to do so narrows your point of view instead of opening it up to suggestions, which is what we are trying to do here.

Listening to and analyzing the music is an intuitive, logical, and effective approach to determining the type of lyrics that would suit it. It is also a common approach--not something I just dreamed up. If it doesn’t work for you, then it doesn’t work for you.

Keys can in fact have an influence on lyrics. For example, Cole Porter wrote a lot of music in Eb and Bb partly because those are good keys for horns, which are good lead/melody instruments for romantic, swing, and Jazz music and arrangements, which he excelled at. Yeah, you can write a rock song in Bb if you want to, but is it common? Does Bb and a clarinet suggest to you hard driving rock?

Chord progressions may or may not suggest the type(s) of song. Apart from blues and early Jazz progressions, the traditional I-IV-V sequence is not common in Jazz. OTOH, one of the most basic chord progressions for Jazz is I-VI-II-V. Yes, you can use that progression in most any style of music if you want to, but if it is in the content of a Jazz arrangement, you've got yourself a Jazz song. And most Jazz music, in my experience, is not suited to "I'm a young punk and angry at the entire world" style of lyrics. But I guess it could be done.

So you've heard songs with banjo lines that would break your heart twice before the chorus? It appears to me that you are again choosing to find exception in order to create an argument. I've heard Led Zeppelin done with bluegrass arrangements. It was done very professionally, but in jest. And when I (and I'll go out on a limb) most people hear a bluegrass arrangement, we are not envisioning Stairway To Heaven style of lyrics.

Again, I'm saying to simply listen to and analyze the music. That doesn't mean that every musical element will be telling or that the music will dictate only one particular type of lyric. It will help put you into the right arena, however.

Unless, of course, this method doesn’t agree with you.

Your ideas are very interesting, enjoyed reading that. I think alot of sax is played in Bb right? No? If it is, then I can think of a few rockin Springsteen tunes that 'defy' your rule.


I've also heard alot of banjo stuff that'd get to ya. All Irish Tenor banjo, which si tuned the same way as a mandolin, also a very cool instrument! Check out ''Galway Girl'' by Steve Earle...heck, even Bruce does a banjo rendition of ''I'm on fire'' live.

'' It appears to me that you are again choosing to find exception in order to create an argument.'' Isn't that how an argument is supposed to work??

Anyways, cool thoughts on composition all round!

 

[tdukex]

If that's what you honestly think, then you have got me totally wrong.

Sorry, my bad. It just seemed to me that you were ignoring the gist of my post by choosing to focus on two of many elements, which could be argued endlessly to no resolution. The method I suggest should be approached as a whole.

I'm genuinely sorry if I misinterpreted. And judging by your posts, you do seem to know quite a lot about songwriting.

Here's to good words coupled with good melodies.

 

[tdukex]

Your ideas are very interesting, enjoyed reading that. I think alot of sax is played in Bb right? No? If it is, then I can think of a few rockin Springsteen tunes that 'defy' your rule.


I've also heard alot of banjo stuff that'd get to ya. All Irish Tenor banjo, which si tuned the same way as a mandolin, also a very cool instrument! Check out ''Galway Girl'' by Steve Earle...heck, even Bruce does a banjo rendition of ''I'm on fire'' live.

'' It appears to me that you are again choosing to find exception in order to create an argument.'' Isn't that how an argument is supposed to work??

Anyways, cool thoughts on composition all round!

Yo TelePaul, I'm not here to argue...usually. I wasn't talking about just any flat key, I was talking specifically about Bb and Eb because of the fingering on the clarinet and sax.

Again, concentrating on exceptions or variances is ignoring the overall gist of my posts. Also, not only did I not lay down any rules, I went out of my way to say there aren't any, so your comment about "Springsteen tunes that 'defy' your rule" seems to me to be an inaccurate and somewhat diseingenuous slant of what I actully posted. But maybe I misinterpreted again.

Debating the merits of a UA 2-610 for a vocal chain is the stuff of a legitimate argument.

OTOH, IMO striving to find exceptions to a grouping of generalalites that are meant to be taken as a whole is simply an exercise in contrariety. Not that that's what you were doing.

 

[TelePaul]

Yo TelePaul, I'm not here to argue...usually. I wasn't talking about just any flat key, I was talking specifically about Bb and Eb because of the fingering on the clarinet and sax.

Again, concentrating on exceptions or variances is ignoring the overall gist of my posts. Also, not only did I not lay down any rules, I went out of my way to say there aren't any, so your comment about "Springsteen tunes that 'defy' your rule" seems to me to be an inaccurate and somewhat diseingenuous slant of what I actully posted. But maybe I misinterpreted again.

Debating the merits of a UA 2-610 for a vocal chain is the stuff of a legitimate argument.

OTOH, IMO striving to find exceptions to a grouping of generalalites that are meant to be taken as a whole is simply an exercise in contrariety. Not that that's what you were doing.

Okay what are you even talking about? I posted my opinion. If it works for you fine, if it doesn't, fine. Whats with all the 'kid glove' treatment, you're going to the extremes to avoid conflict in opinions.

I don't even know what 'disingenuous' means; I'm assuming some kind of deliberate misunderstanding. I was in agreement with your thoughts on the fingering of saxes. You're making posting here alot of work, because prior to this I wasn't aware there wasn't a right way and a wrong way to write songs. It's a discussion, not a pissing contest.

 

[Freddy]

Going off-topic a bit, I am curious as to the use of song-writing theory.

When I started writing songs, I never knew it existed. Since then, I have read some and it makes sense. However, I confess that I do find the process of reading it a bit wearisome.

I am fairly "right-brained" and certainly am when it comes to song-writing. I can be analytical in my work, but it isn't my preference, and this (theory) does feel like an analytical approach to me - maybe it is just the way it is written.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not knocking theory. Far from it. For some people it may be extremely useful (and indeed I may find it very useful too).

So far, though, I read about (for example) inversions and it is kind of interesting to think "Oh, that's what I did.. interesting". But that is it. I kind of view it as I would literary criticism - "interesting" but divorced from the creative process - but I suspect I may be missing a trick somehow.

I tend to write by kind of "noodling around" I suppose.

Does anybody use it in the writing process? If so, how? I'd genuinely like to know, because I may be missing out on something and (believe me) I need every trick I can lay my hands on.

 

[TelePaul]

I noodle, and alot of my best ideas start with an accident...I usually use theory to develop said accident. It's hard to sit down and say ''okay, my next song will be in 4/4, 80 BPM, have progression X for the verse, progression Y for the chorus, progression Z for the bridge, repeat to Coda.''

 

[32-20-Blues]

So far, though, I read about (for example) inversions and it is kind of interesting to think "Oh, that's what I did.. interesting". But that is it. I kind of view it as I would literary criticism - "interesting" but divorced from the creative process - but I suspect I may be missing a trick somehow.

Literary criticism is a great analogy. To continue it for a moment - some authors would consider themselves exponents of a specific school of thought, and would therefore employ the conventions associated with that genre in their writing. T.S. Eliot, for example, was emphtically aware of his status as a modernist writer, and his work reflects that. Maybe the suggestion that he was writing to a (modernist) formula is a little strong on my part, but he was undoubtedly aware of the traits he wanted to use in his writing. On the other hand, for some authors the theoretical aspects of their craft are of little consequence; more important is the act of writing, or the finished product.

To relate this to songwriting: writing in accordance with pre-determined theories does happen, but it may not be as overtly 'theoretical' as one might imagine. A composer of country material, for example, will probably automatically make use of the major key, coupled perhaps with a typical first and fifth note bass-line, and a major pentatonic scale with a passing flattened fourth. These are readily identifiable traits of country music, but does that mean the writer is using theory in the act of writing? It seems to me that utilising 'theory' and utilising 'convention' are closely linked. After blues music became an established movement, it is doubtful whether many of the musicians playing it were conscious of the fact that the IV chord creates a repeating tension, resolved temporarily by a return to the I chord, before a V, IV, I, progression resolves the entire verse. They knew it worked, and they knew how it sounded, but rarely - if ever - would they have expressed it in theoretical terms. Instead, they were writing in accordance with tradition, and thus almost accidentally satisfying the dictums of songwriting theory.

Speaking from a personal point of view, I tend to write in the same way you do. Generally, I would have some form of melody in my head; the act of transposing this with my guitar may change this initial idea slightly. It is worthwhile, however, to look back over your compositions and analyse them from a more academic point of view. The notes of a melody over a certain chord may suggest a change in your rhythm guitar playing within a particular song, or you might realise why certain harmonies work. Other than this 'retrospective theory,' however, I depend on it very little. Which - being entirely subjective for a moment - is how I feel it largely should be.

 

[fraserhutch]

I absolutely use theory in the writing process.
Whether I am songwriting, arranging or orchestrating.

Now the following is just my experience and observations.

You write by noodling, and this is not a bad thing. It definitely can lead to some fortunate serendipities.
However, the real drawback is that you almost have to stumble onto something to get there. And maybe what you stumble on is not what you would ultimately prefer.

When I write, I have theory as a tool; I have a toolbox as it were that I can draw from. and having studied that, both in schooll and on my own, I can reproduce what I hear in my mind's ear.

That said, I still do doodle a fair amount, as there is a lot to be said for serendipity. However, I do have that framework to draw from ever when doodling.

And my final observation, musical tricks are theory in one form or another As you develop your own toolbox, your "tricks" become you working theory as you begin to formulate rules (loosely speaking for those who get offended at the term 'rules') as to when and how they can be employed.

Does anybody use it in the writing process? If so, how? I'd genuinely like to know, because I may be missing out on something and (believe me) I need every trick I can lay my hands on.

 

[fraserhutch]

I noodle, and alot of my best ideas start with an accident...I usually use theory to develop said accident. It's hard to sit down and say ''okay, my next song will be in 4/4, 80 BPM, have progression X for the verse, progression Y for the chorus, progression Z for the bridge, repeat to Coda.''

That's not theory per se, that's just form, and trust me, rock and pop music are amongst the most formulaic styles around....