Worth a Pre-amp upgrade?

BeniRose

BeniRose

New member
Hey there friends! I'm interested in a pre-amp upgrade, but I'm wondering if it's worth it at this point or if I should just hold out for the next 20 years while I can save up for something that will actually be a leap. ;)

I'm currently recording using one of the older model Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 i/o (the ones that were actually sapphire coloured). I also use an ART Digital MPA into the S/PDIF for 10 total inputs/preamps.

My question is. Are there any pre-amps worth getting that will sound better than the pre's built into my Saffire that will cost less than 200 per channel or should I just save up for some ISAs or something at this point? I definitely feel as if I'm pushing the limit as far as how good my recordings can sound, so I think I'll eventually need to upgrade, but an upgrade to more expensive gear is WAY down the line, so I'm wondering if there's something I can at the pre-amp level to make things sound better in the meantime.

Also, would getting anything like a BlueTube be worth my time either, just to have a few more tube channels for colouration? Or would using the built-in preamps be a much better idea?

Thanks friends!
 
imo it's a tough one. the focusrite pre's on the saffire AI's are pretty good and the ART MPA's are one of the things people normally suggest when posed the "cheap but good new preamp" question. it also kinda depends on how many extra pres you want. The ISA series is awesome and seeing as they do 1, 2, 4, and 8 channel versions and two channel strips there's plenty of choice in terms of how much you'd be willing to spend/how many pres you need, although new even the ISA one is out of your budget (but second hand you may find one in the $200 range :thumbs up:). Otherwise the GAP Pre-73 is around your price range or, for a little more, the Warm Audio WA12 looks good on paper, or the Joe Meek VC3Q is pretty nifty to my understanding (that's my next purchase) However, these are all single preamp units and as an "upgrade" in terms of clarity and headroom, the ISA's definitely are whereas the Pre-73 and WA12 are more for adding a more vintage colour (although, it's that's what you're looking for then it's definitely worth it and it would give you more tonal choice in your pres).

If you want cleaner pre's, i'd say go for the ISA stuff. If you want colouration, go for either the GAP Pre-73, the WA12 or the VC3Q

the BlueTube, ART Tube MP, Behringer MIC100 and alike are very similar in terms of quality to the one's already in the Saffire. They can add some subtle colouration that you may not be able to get from either the Saffire or MPA (i had three ART Tube MP's for a while and they worked ok for bass and acoustic DI's but broke one, sold one, and gave one to a mate as i just wasn't using them) but you'd be better off saving and looking at something bigger and better.

Although i get slated for it, i still quite like the TL Audio stuff, but i doubt it'd be better/much different from your ART MPA in terms of the sound, although you may find otherwise if you can find anywhere to test them
 
The cheapest preamps that I think would offer a good addition to your Saffire pres (which are already pretty decent) would be the WARM WA12, Focusrite ISA One and GAP PRE73 DLX.

I would not waste your money on anything cheaper!
 
Haha great, thanks guys. It's good to hear two opinions that my focusrite pre's are already decent. I definitely recognize the upgrade from the firepod, but I was curious if there was still a step between them and "real studio" pre-amps, if you know what I mean.

I think I am looking for an upgrade in terms of getting a "cleaner" sound for sure. It might be nice to get one or two amps to have some colorization options, but that's not as important to me. Are there any other good options that might fit this price and description other than the ISA series? Am I stuck in SS because anything tube at this price point is going to be more colouration that clarity? What about the FMR RNP, I've heard decent things about that guy.

Justsomeguy said:
the BlueTube, ART Tube MP, Behringer MIC100 and alike are very similar in terms of quality to the one's already in the Saffire. They can add some subtle colouration that you may not be able to get from either the Saffire or MPA (i had three Art Tube MP's for a while and they worked ok for bass and acoustic DI's but broke one, sold one, and gave one to a mate as i just wasn't using them) but you'd be better off saving and looking at something bigger and better.
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This is exactly what I was thinking, and was wondering if there was something that would be a step up, but not be something I'd have to take forever to save up for. Obviously an Avalon is way beyond the next step up from these guys, but I just wasn't sure what might be in between that's worth spending money on to make my tracking cleaner and clearer. I've had a Tube MP forever now, just put a new tube in it yesterday and still decided I like my MPA better (for some reason I still have stock tubes in the MPA, I really should replace those!).

So thanks again for all the suggestions. I'm going to look into that Pre 73. I just read a review in SOS on it and it sounds like that might be a good bet for me! Thanks again!
 
Also, I wanted to say my current set up is to typically use the MPA on kick/snare when recording drums and do the rest through my Saffire. I'll usually simultaneously record scratch tracks through the focusrite, but then go back and re-record everything the the MPA. A few quick questions:

a) Is this a good idea. Are there some items that I should stick to my Focusrite pre's for?
b) Should I be running my kick and snare through the MPA or would overheads be a better idea?
c) If this is all true, what are some good $40 or less tubes to put in my MPA to help make it all sound better given what I said I'm using it for.

I do realize the correct answer to all these questions (maybe not c) is "try yourself and find out", and I plan on doing that, but I'm curious what one might say. I think I might start a new thread for this question, but I thought I'd ask it here as well.
 
BeniRose said:
I'm currently recording using one of the older model Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 i/o (the ones that were actually sapphire coloured). I also use an ART Digital MPA into the S/PDIF for 10 total inputs/preamps.

I definitely feel as if I'm pushing the limit as far as how good my recordings can sound, so I think I'll eventually need to upgrade, but an upgrade to more expensive gear is WAY down the line, so I'm wonderin
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The Saffire is decent stuff. No reason you can't get stellar quality recordings out of it. When you say you are pushing the limit - why don't you post some samples? It helps us get a frame of reference. Lots of folks think they need new pres - when their money could be spent (or better yet NOT SPENT) elsewhere.
 
chuckduffy said:
The Saffire is decent stuff. No reason you can't get stellar quality recordings out of it. When you say you are pushing the limit - why don't you post some samples? It helps us get a frame of reference. Lots of folks think they need new pres - when their money could be spent (or better yet NOT SPENT) elsewhere.
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In total agreement here. Give samples of what you have going on now.

Money is easily wasted on the wrong things. Been there....
 
jimmys69 said:
In total agreement here. Give samples of what you have going on now.

Money is easily wasted on the wrong things. Been there....
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Alas, we've all been there (which is why our pair of C1000's are covering dust in the back of our mic cupboard. by this point they've been there so long they may have found Narnia)

Also, as chuffyduck said, money is often better spent in other places. What mic's are you using? what's you space to record/mix like? Is it your recordings that you feel have reached their limits or your mixes?

I've not tried the RNP but love my RNC and the RNLA is on my "to buy" list.

Not sure if you can find this state side but i'm very intrigued by the Alctron MP100 which, although it may have changed now, is basically the UA 710 Twinfinity (UA got in some trouble when people realised and alctron were told to stop selling their version)

In answer to your a,b,c's;

A) have a play around and see what works, but i quite like the pre's on my mates newer saffire Pro 24 for vocals and acoustic guitars
B) again, have a play, but i quite like valve pre's on kick and snare channels for that slight valve compression and edge. I've got a TL Audio quad pre and if i'm using more than 4 mics on drums i either stick 2 kick mics and snare top and bottom through it or with four mics it's kick, snare, and OH's and just play with driving the valves until i get a sound i like.
C) i've not played loads with swapping tubes in preamps (i still have the stock ones in my TL Audio) so can't suggest anything i'm afraid. the only two tubes i've swapped were one in a Rode NTK (because the old one was broken) and one in an ART Tube MP (because a mtae had one knocking about). the NTK sounded much better than before the old valve died, the ART MP still sounded crap imo :)
 
jimmys69 said:
In total agreement here. Give samples of what you have going on now.

Money is easily wasted on the wrong things. Been there....
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But what if I'm wrong and my stuff actually still sounds like bollocks?! I'd rather live in denial and just keep asking which pre's to spend my money on ;)

JK, I'll post something up tonight!
 
BeniRose said:
But what if I'm wrong and my stuff actually still sounds like bollocks?! I'd rather live in denial and just keep asking which pre's to spend my money on ;)

JK, I'll post something up tonight!
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Denial is not just a river in egypt :-) It's ok to sound like bollocks, I've made a career of it lol
 
If you go to Moose Studios | A Project Studio in South Philly and click on Samples, you can hear some of the stuff I've done. I was going to try to post them right here and explain the context for each one, since most of them have some context that makes them "not the best I can do", but then I thought that was bullshit and I should just let them speak for themselves. Let me know what you think.
 
Where/who cut the the "Nurse Mary Jean" track?

If you did that in your project studio...don't mess with your rig, that's a nice track as-is. :)
 
I really liked the "Why are you Weeping" track, reminded me of Willy Mason's first album :thumbs up:

In terms of preamps in your rig and based on the sound/style of the samples on your site i'd be tempted to say have a look at the GAP Pre-73 purely as a nice colour preamp
 
miroslav said:
Where/who cut the the "Nurse Mary Jean" track?

If you did that in your project studio...don't mess with your rig, that's a nice track as-is. :)
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Thanks mate. I did cut that in my studio, I'm glad you feel that way. I think the mastering helped quite a bit, this was the first time I paid to get a track mastered rather than using the Logic pre-sets. I also used my poorly kept '79 Ludwig kit that needs new heads and cymbals, as well as my old Samson C02s (I now have Rode NT5s for overheads). And we didn't use a click.

I'm pretty happy with how that turned out, I think I used the same process I mentioned before, so I guess that's working for me! I just for some reason feel like it's still slightly below professional quality. Feel free to disagree :D
 
Justsomeguy said:
I really liked the "Why are you Weeping" track, reminded me of Willy Mason's first album :thumbs up:

In terms of preamps in your rig and based on the sound/style of the samples on your site i'd be tempted to say have a look at the GAP Pre-73 purely as a nice colour preamp
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Thanks, I haven't heard Willy Mason before but am listening now and am really liking it. His voice sounds JUST like a friend of mine, and the songs are really catchy.

Yeah I'm going to be keeping the GAP Pre-73 in mind. I'm not dying for an upgrade, I just wanted something to keep in mind, especially since I have my eye on an Apogee Ensemble, and I'm going to need to get 4 more external pre's before I can move to that guy, since it only has 4 built in.

Honestly, I think I'd rather have something to clean it up. Even thought Nurse Mary Jean and Why are you Weeping sound good to me, I feel like they could sound a bit clearer. Maybe that's really something in my mixing, or mic placements, or even the mics I'm using, but I just upgraded mics, so I hope it's not that!
 
BeniRose said:
Honestly, I think I'd rather have something to clean it up. Even thought Nurse Mary Jean and Why are you Weeping sound good to me, I feel like they could sound a bit clearer. Maybe that's really something in my mixing, or mic placements, or even the mics I'm using, but I just upgraded mics, so I hope it's not that!
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To my ears, the vocals sound crisp and clear and that's where it counts. It also depends on what kinda stuff you plan to record. if you're sticking in the same vein as the samples you've got, something with a vintage edge would sound cool imo. Alternatively, cleaner pre's and more coloured mic's may be more useful. For example, say if went with the ISA stuff, if you wanted a crystal clear sound then an LDC into the ISA would work. Whereas if you wanted warm and vintage then a ribbon into the ISA would get that sound. Or, a tube mic into the ISA would give you smooth and clean. This has been my thinking when buying gear; a super clean pre that simply amplifies the signal from the mic without adding anything other than volume means that i can try more mics and have scope of sound. Granted, i have more than one pre and use them all at different times, but the first thing i tend to change if something isn't right are the mics and the placements before the pres (unless i can almost hear the sound i want and then think "oh, the xxx pre might work with that better")

Saying that, as has already been said, for clean, cheap pre's the ISA and the RNP seem to be the way to go :)
 
Honestly - I think you got a good thing going. There is room to move on mix/balance/eq - overall the I think the quality is there, both in the sonics, the instrumentation, the recording and the playing. I think it's good stuff. I wouldn't go changing equipment just now. I would just keep tweeking the overal mix. Maybe work with light compression a little more to gel things up, even them out a little.

You got a good thing going.
 
chuckduffy said:
Honestly - I think you got a good thing going. There is room to move on mix/balance/eq - overall the I think the quality is there, both in the sonics, the instrumentation, the recording and the playing. I think it's good stuff. I wouldn't go changing equipment just now. I would just keep tweeking the overal mix. Maybe work with light compression a little more to gel things up, even them out a little.

You got a good thing going.
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DITTO.

The key thing IMO is your style of music....it fits your rig and vice versa.
Yeah, better quality gear is always going to help, but with the somewhat raw flavor of Americana Rock music...I don't think that super polishing your tracks is going to add a heck of a lot...or better yet, NOT super polishing will not take away a lot from that style of music. That style is more about arrangements and performances, IMO.

So just keep tweaking the recording and add the better gear when possible, but no need to feel bad not having it.
Your stuff sounds good.
 
Thanks guys. I really appreciate all the kind words.

Justsomeguy said:
but the first thing i tend to change if something isn't right are the mics and the placements before the pres
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This was the short version of the very long answer I got at the other thread :) I do have a bit of a variety of mics, but I tend to just use my most expensive/best ones for as much as possible, because I asume they're going to give me the clearest sound. Like I said I just upgraded to those mics (still paying off the Sweetwater bill!) so I guess I don't have much room to move there, but I could try some of my older mics in other situations, but I'm going to assume my newer mics are going to sound best in most situations.

And it's not even that I'm not getting the tone and sound I want when I record each instrument, generally they sound pretty great. It's just when I put them all together, there's a general sense of muddiness happening. Maybe this is my mixing techniques or maybe I'm not recording them as clear as possible because I don't have the right micing techniques, but I thought the pre-amp was the place to clear that up and now see it's not, so this thread served a great purpose!

Regardless of that, I'm still interested in the Pre73 and RNP :)
 
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