Wiring.. so much wiring!

S

sr71rules

Member
Hello all,

I've been thinking a lot of studio wiring over the past few weeks. My Tascam M3700 is nearing completion and though the studio itself is still a ways out I'm starting to try and figure out the best ways to wire everything together.

I am trying to keep things flexible and, where reasonably possible, inexpensive.

My Tascam is 32 channels, which right off the bat poses a problem for me. Patch bays come in two varieties, 1/4" with 48 jacks, 24 per row - or - TT/Bantam with 96 jacks, 48 per row. The 1/4" bays mean I can't use just a single row for each connector type on my console, the TT patchbay means each row of jacks has 16 more than I need per row to fill my console. Switchcraft does make a 64 jack panel that is TT on one side, DB25 on the other but at $700 each.. they are a bit beyond my reach!

So.. I've been thinking.

Here's the plan and I need some help figuring out if I'm insane or not :spank:

I'm thinking about getting a series of patch bays that are the 96 jack TT with the 3 Pin Edac on the back.

I've not done a full map of the patch field yet but I see reason for 5U of bays to make good safe use of normals/half normals.

1.) Live room Patch field < Normal > Tascam Mic Pres

2.) Insert send <half Normal > Insert Return

3.) Direct Out on Tascam < Half Normal > Recorder Inputs (either DAW or Tape)

4.) Recorder Outs < Half Normal > Tape Input on Tascam

5.) All 32 'Line Ins' need also be on the patch field, perhaps half normalled to racked Mic Pre's or whatever.

I could move the Line In jacks to somewhere else on the patch field but I like to keep console channels in a single vertical line on the patch field. Further, in the Live room I have a custom snake that, instead of being wired for XLR jacks, is wired for Neutrik Combo jacks. I can plug a Mic in and have it normalled to a Mic Pre or plug in a line level signal in the live room and I can break the Mic Pre normal by patching the Live Room jack into the Line In.

So far so good...

So, what do I then do about rack gear to which my collection seems to always be growing?

I will be building custom racks for the studio so I'm thinking about wiring each rack to an Elco connector. I can set up a rack for compressors, a rack for Reverb/delay, ect and then wire them to an Elco on the back. I can then Elco the rack to a spot on the wall behind and then, from the wall Elco, wire up to the patch bay.

This should allow me two things...

1.) I can keep things neat and tidy in the studio without having to worry too much about cable strain and moving things about.

2.) I can set things up to allow some level of portability. I can break down what goes into each rack case so that I can pull one or two racks for a mobile gig or I can pull a rack out to work on it without having to tear it all down.

This, it seems, would also allow me to start assembling racks now and getting the bulk of the wiring done now, before the studio is done... which will let me use more of the gear I have before it's all safe and sound in it's new home.

So... am I insane? Does this make sense? Does anyone else have other ideas or input?

All are welcome!

Robert
 
Not sure why having an extra 16 jack pairs on a patchbay after you wire the console is an issue?
Just wire something else into those 16 pairs. How many pieces of rack gear will you need to wire into the bays besides the 3700?
Elco is nice, but I think will end up being $$$. I went with basic 96-point TT bays and on mine the cables are soldered directly to the jacks. It was the least expensive way. I guess if you needed to have mobile racks for remote projects, then the Elco makes it easier, but I've not had any issues with soldering the cables right to the jacks...I just planned for a bunch of spares for future gear. I have like 5-6 TT bays...and still have about a half bay left for more gear.

I did a lot of "neat" organizing when I first laid out my bays, and much of the console points are still as they were originally...but I've moved/changed a lot of gear around, and that has changed where some stuff was/is located on the bay....it's not that big a deal, especially if you are the main/only person using the gear.
I don't think there's any standard for which gear needs to go where on a bay. Maybe the only "standard" is that outputs usually go top row and inputs bottom row....but I've even violated that rule on some stuff. Ain't no big thing. :D

I would avoid putting preamp mic inputs on your patchbays with all the other gear. Yes, if you are careful you can do it and avoid ground issues and phantom power issues...but I chose to wire my preamp inputs to XLR patchbays separately from the rest of my TT bays. I also put my XLR bays on the opposite side of my console from the rest of the gear bays...which was the more logical place for me as it put the preamp inputs closer to where I would be mostly using mics...and, all the standalone preamps themselves are right above the XLR bays (I don't really use my 3500 preamps).

There are many ways to wire bays...it really comes down to your gear and your preferences.
 
Some good advice from Miroslav.

I'd strongly suggest that you keep your mic level stuff completely separate from the rest of your patch fields. We used to put mic to preamp/mixer patching in a separate rack and electrically and physically isolate them from all other gear. This is particularly important if you have any unbalanced stuff running around the system (quite likely in a studio setting).

Unless you can use the racks "as is" when you want them for live use, I'm not convinced of the value of using Elcos. Just put enough of a service loom on the connections so you can remove gear from the front. In my experience (which seems to mirror Miroslav's) changes in studios happen often enough that niceties like Elco connectors rapidly become an annoyance rather than a benefit.

The other thing I'd say is that, on any sizeable installation, be scrupulous about labelling every cable and keeping diagrams and cable schedules up to date. The time spent doing this will pay dividends over the years as gear is added, removed or just changed.
 
Yeah, I second keeping mic level stuff seperate. My system isn't much diiferent from yours, based around a M-3500 but the patchbays are 1/4" Switchcraft long frame brass solder type. The mic inputs from all preamps are wired to a mic in patch panel in the wall of my live room. The preamp outputs and direct outs from the console come up in the patchbays with all the other gozintas and gozoutas.
You have to patch mics at the live room to the specific mic pre you want to use but thats not an issue for me.
 
Bobbsy said:
The other thing I'd say is that, on any sizeable installation, be scrupulous about labelling every cable and keeping diagrams and cable schedules up to date. The time spent doing this will pay dividends over the years as gear is added, removed or just changed.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!!!

I have and keep a complete list and layout diagrams of ALL my cabling (and I do have a lot of cabling). So when I go behind a rack, I can look at the snake number and the individual cable number, and find it on my diagrams where it goes and what it is connected to on the other end. I even write down the colors of the individual cables and what pins they connected to etc.
This has saved my ass countless times when having to move/change things around.
If/when you do have to change/move something...you always updated your list/diagram to reflect the changes.

You can get fancy an use some stick-on labeling system...but even a simple marker on the outer casing or a ring of paper w/tape over it will work. I find it's faster for a lot of labeling than futzing with a lable-maker...unless you are a total neat-nick and you like to see perfect labels on everything. ;)

For the front of my bays...I have my own labeling "code"... :D ...as it is almost impossible to spell out entire gear names per each jack point...and for that I use a small Brother label maker. It's a small enough self-sticking ribbon that with a little trimming fits just right in the label groove of the bays, and you can size the label text just right for that application...and they also come off easy enough if you need to make changes.
 
Firstly... Thanks!

Ok. So moving to Elcos not an ideal way forward. Check.

I'm on the fence about this whole phantom power in the patch bays thing. I have always run my mic Pres through the patch bay and, with the grounds strapped and dealt with, I've never run into trouble. I've never been to a large studio where they didn't put the pres in the patch bay but here in the home recording world, people seem to prefer to keep Mic lines on an island.

Moving my Mic lines to a separate patch bay wouldn't be the end of the world but I would need to reconsider the snake into the live room. I love the ease and simplicity of the Neutrik Combo connectors. More to think about...

Also, having 16 extra jacks per row past what I need for the desk isn't really a problem; I will use them for other inputs. It's just that it's not as neat and tidy as having a clear signal flow from top to bottom on the bays.

Lots and lots to think about...

How do you wire your XLR patch bay into the rest of the patch bay? XLR Tie lines show up on the panel, you take a short XLR cable and make a connection to the Pre that you want and then the output of that pre is wired into the rest of the patch bay, or not wired anywhere if you used a pre on the console.

Is that right?
 
Well, on what I consider my most successful project, we didn't put mic level through conventional patch panels at all. We used 19" blank plates and fitted them with as many XLR panel mount connectors as they'd accommodate--and patched with short XLR cables. This eliminated the biggest fear for phantom on a patch field, namely that any form of jack makes on leg before the other and could damage dynamic or ribbon mics if you plug or unplug a cable with the phantom accidentally left on.

(I should say that we didn't bother with any form of normalling--we had wall boxes for mics dotted around the studio and there wasn't any point in trying to figure out a normalling scheme. There were probably at least 4 sockets in the studio for every 1 that was actually connected at any one time.)
 
sr71rules said:
How do you wire your XLR patch bay into the rest of the patch bay? XLR Tie lines show up on the panel, you take a short XLR cable and make a connection to the Pre that you want and then the output of that pre is wired into the rest of the patch bay, or not wired anywhere if you used a pre on the console.

Is that right?
Click to expand...

Yes.

I have and XLR bay for the pre's inputs....but the pre's outputs and line inputs (if any) are on the other bays, with all the other gear.

So...I just plug my mic cable into the XLR bay for whatever preamp I want to use. That includes the 3500/3700 pres, as they are also on the XLR bay.

It's not real complicated and IMO works out very nicely. You really don't need the pre inputs on the same bays with all the other gear since pre inputs usually only connect to mic outputs...and not any of the other gear's outputs.
For the pre's that have Line inputs where you might want to run a signal through the pre just to give it some flavor...those ARE on the bay with all the other gear.


studio_main.jpg
 
Another tidbit. I use several of the Tascam RCA patch bays. A wet erase fine tipped pen is good for labeling. I've had to come up with some kind of abbreviation standard that makes sense to me. Also, if I were inclined to use XLR's on patch bays, I'd get the connectors bulk and pre-drilled panels from someone like Vafamsound on Ebay and wire them up myself to save some money.
 
Ok. Awesome. Thanks Gentlemen.

Miroslav, I'd been referencing your post before to that same image on your site earlier today :) I'd love to see some more detailed images of your racks and your setup. I recognize a few of the items but I bet you have some real gems tucked away in there. You have such a clean logical setup... I love the handles at the base of your racks on the right hand side.

Lots of great information.. time for a re-think!

Robert
 
I have to say...looking at the picture today I realize how dated it really is! :D
Yeah...the monitors, console and racks are the same, and some of the gear is the same in the racks...but since that picture was taken (about 3-4 years ago) I've added a bunch of new stuff in the racks, sold off some, and moved a good deal of it around...so to me it's not the way it should look...and these are the same pics on my website. :(
I see now I have to take some new pics.... :)
The rack on the left of the console is still my preamp rack w/XLR bays, and it has a couple of more pres.


Oh...the handles are there because the double side rack (one unit) and the console with L/R racks (also one unit)...both can pull out away from the wall about 3 feet (they are on wheels), which makes it easy for me to get in there and rewire or do maintenance...
...and it also allowed me to put the console desk/rack furniture right up to the walls instead of having to leave space had they been immovable.
 
I hate cordballs!

I have and keep a complete list and layout diagrams of ALL my cabling
Click to expand...

Ditto. Here is what I did. I can open the skp. file and due to Sketchups ability to pre set any view you want by virtue of a view list, I can instantly zoom in on any patchbay or other piece of gear..like the master section on my M3700. Still wiring my setup and modifying the file which isn't finished yet. Actually, there are four files. One is actual wiring diagram. One is simple layout. One is labeling list, and one is patchbay normals. Here is a couple of screen shots.
is.php?i=1753&img=Studio_Wiring_D.jpg
View attachment 72578


:facepalm::mad::cursing: Well after 3 months of bitching, I WAS hoping the webmaster here had fixed the attatchment thing by now. No such luck. Fuck him. As far as posting a few hosted pics, this site has become a complete and utter joke.
 
I have the same issues with attachments on & off .... :(

That's cool that you have a virtual layout of your gear. I'm still a pencil & paper guy when it comes to that. :D
I sometimes need to take the layout with me behind/under the racks/console...so that paper layout makes it easy.
I assume you can print out those virtual layouts if needed?
 
Count me as another old fashioned guy--a schematic, a rack layout and a cable schedule will suit me better than a 3D virtual layout.
 
I use a "near end/far end" tagging system on my wiring. The near end is the rack number, elevation and port number of where you're at and the far end is the rack number, elevation and port number of where it's going. That and a schematic, I can trouble shoot and trace any wire to its termination.
This sis the back of my M-3500 when I was wiring it into the patchbays and the rest of the system.
 

Attachments

  • console wire done.jpg
    console wire done.jpg
    39.3 KB · Views: 43
I assume you can print out those virtual layouts if needed?
Click to expand...
Actually, I print out the rear view of each piece of gear. The wires are labeled in the file, so I really didn't need to label the real wires. And actually, in Sketchup, each wire is a "component", and as such I can view the "attributes" and as each wire may be part of a complete "circuit", they are components as well, so I can look at different levels of each component. And views. And lists of attributes..such as plug/jack number .

But I'm still working out my wiring in Sketchup prior to actually doing it. I have lots of DIY stuff too, so it helps to work out things in Sketchup first. Once I'm satisfied with the wiring layout, I'll start plugging away..so to speak. :p

As you probably know, there are so many types of wiring, I wanted to make sure everything is optional...like Timecode, computer video/audio/Cat6/ etc, speaker select system, electrical, headphone and the midi thing too. Damn, there's a half dozen different ways to hook this stuff up, but I need it correct for my system...ie...Midiizer, M3700, computers, Midi interface etc etc. Still figuring out the M3700/midi thing. I've seen a couple of people here who were able to get the mixer working like a simple Control surface. But I haven't tried it yet. Too busy still building some DIY modules for the console and allthe "acoustics" stuff at the moment. Oh, did I mention the "honey do" and ebay make a living list too?:facepalm::D Mindboggling. So many studio projects..so little time.:drunk:

Maudio 1010lt Breakout Box.jpg
 

Attachments

  • is.php?i=1705&img=431923_Wrist_Pad_Mo.jpg
    is.php?i=1705&img=431923_Wrist_Pad_Mo.jpg
    37.5 KB · Views: 31
chronicle said:
The wires are labeled in the file, so I really didn't need to label the real wires.
Click to expand...

Hey...I guess you are a thrill seeker who likes living on the edge! :D

;)

The computer and all the virtual stuff is nice...but IMO, do yourself a favor and label the actual cables.
Trust me on that. :)
 
Yeah. I guess I have a lot to learn but one black cable with an XLR on the end looks an awful lot like another black cable with an XLR on the end to me....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top