Why so little love for 30IPS?

C

Cosmic

Active member
Hi,

I am curious about it, because mostly I see it derided both here and elsewhere.

I know the "shortcomings":

More headwear.
Lots more tape.
Low-FQ roll-off compared to 15IPS

I know most machines don't have it, but I have heard from folks who do, who still don't find it a good option.

Last year, I bought a Studer 807 Mk2 in fantastic shape on EBay, and one of the reasons I chose that one was the 30IPS option (it has 7.5 and 15 as well.)

I just find that on things like acoustic guitar, GP9 at that speed just is...amazing. The air. The headroom. I can hammer it if I want or just back off and let the natural dynamics play out, with next to no noise and no Dolby.

I am not saying to use it for everything; the thickening at 15IPS gives the right rock 'whomp', but if that is not what you need, 30 is as pretty as analog can get, in my opinion.

Anyone else using it? Any opinions?

Best,
C.
 
Obviously there is life way above 20 KHZ and that is what you're hearing or rather feeling with the 30 ips but, for me, 7 1/2 and 15 ips is as analog as I want to get [not to say 30 isn't a viable option though].
 
...plus, machines with the 30ips option are a lot more costly, in initial cost, parts and maintenance, are much heavier and not as available as the semi-pro versions [the TASCAMs outthere, for example].
 
Cosmic said:
Hi,


I just find that on things like acoustic guitar, GP9 at that speed just is...amazing. The air. The headroom. I can hammer it if I want or just back off and let the natural dynamics play out, with next to no noise and no Dolby.

I am not saying to use it for everything; the thickening at 15IPS gives the right rock 'whomp', but if that is not what you need, 30 is as pretty as analog can get, in my opinion.

Anyone else using it? Any opinions?

Best,
C.
Click to expand...

Dolby alone will make much more of an improvement in headroom/noise at 15ips than will 30ips and no Dolby.

Many folk dont know that reel to reels at 15ips are technically capable of way above 20khz, or or how else was it possible for ordinary cassettes at only 1/8th that speed to go out to 20khz?
In practice, the 30ips does give some more headroom/lower noise but a lot of the extra speed is wasted on giving you a potential frequency response well out into the supersonics, which 15ips could already do, and which probably the rest of the gear in the chain will wipe out anyway, regardless of whether a human can hear it anyway.

Much modern music relies on heavy low frequency bass and the head bump phenomenon at 30ips was often considered too much of a liability But sure, with an acoustic guitar there's very little right down low anyway.

But that aside, improvements in modern tapes over the decades more than compensated for the penalty of recording at 15ips rather than 30ips.

Tim
 
Cosmic said:
Hi,

I am curious about it, because mostly I see it derided both here and elsewhere.

I know the "shortcomings":

More headwear.
Lots more tape.
Low-FQ roll-off compared to 15IPS

I know most machines don't have it, but I have heard from folks who do, who still don't find it a good option.

Last year, I bought a Studer 807 Mk2 in fantastic shape on EBay, and one of the reasons I chose that one was the 30IPS option (it has 7.5 and 15 as well.)

I just find that on things like acoustic guitar, GP9 at that speed just is...amazing. The air. The headroom. I can hammer it if I want or just back off and let the natural dynamics play out, with next to no noise and no Dolby.

I am not saying to use it for everything; the thickening at 15IPS gives the right rock 'whomp', but if that is not what you need, 30 is as pretty as analog can get, in my opinion.

Anyone else using it? Any opinions?

Best,
C.
Click to expand...

192kHz sampling rate is the new 30ips.

30ips is a waste of tape. The actual people who knew better advocated that 20ips was ideal, but as usual it was never adopted.

15ips with a good hot tape is great even without noise reduction.
 
Speaking of actual people doing actual things and knowing about actual things they do.
Where are those people?
Oooops!, - Right here!, like the person, who started this very thread, for example.
ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!, - there you go, now you see, ok, then.
So, these are the people that matter, and so does what they have to say about what they do, ACTUALLY, that is.
*********
and then of course, there are balloons, full of hot air.

/later
 

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Dr ZEE said:
here comes the "rain" ...







***********
I gonna buy a hat, and it better be a big one
Click to expand...

No rain (whatever that means). The people who knew (Jeep Harned, John Stevens, Studer design staff and Ampex) have all said this. The problem was that the 7.5/15/30ips was the standard and no one wanted to change that. It was too late. Jeep Harned did make a proto of a 3" 20ips machine that died on the vine.

To Cosmic:
Read this thread. There are some good answers to your question:http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/37619/0#msg_37619
 
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MCI2424 said:
The people who knew...staff
Click to expand...
ahhhhh, I see.
let's imagine then, it has to be something like this, then.
coooooooooool
OK, dear people who know, listen up:
The birdy gonna fly out of this little box, look right here.
Smile!
- FLASH.
:D:D:D:D:D
 

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MCI2424 said:
192kHz sampling rate is the new 30ips.

30ips is a waste of tape. The actual people who knew better advocated that 20ips was ideal, but as usual it was never adopted.

15ips with a good hot tape is great even without noise reduction.
Click to expand...

Wrong, nothing can replace a well aligned 2" tape machine, and certainly not a DAW at 192khz.

30ips without any NR sounds awesome and I get plenty of low end. You should hear the recording of a horn section, or real strings on 30ips, it's beautiful, the best sound you can get.

But, tape is expensive and in case of a rock band recording with distorted guitars most engineers find 15 ips good enough. But 30 ips sounds definitely better, no doubt.
 
Well the only thing I ever had to do with 30 ips was my Fostex E16.
And I thought it sounded thin. But my R8 at 15 sounded much better.
 
Han said:
...in case of a rock band recording with distorted guitars most engineers find 15 ips good enough.
Click to expand...
...Not just "good enough" but rather - 'perfect', and not only in case of rock with distorted guitars, but in case of just rock, and it has been found also by many recording artists who were not engineers.
Han said:
30 ips sounds definitely better, no doubt.
Click to expand...
I treat my doubts with respect. They've earned it. ;) Also in my case (in respect to the subject) I'll never know for sure, (not to say that I feel that I am missing something), but it is what it is. I'll never have a 30ips machine, so? ... - I'll never know.
********
to Cosmic:
From "actual people" at this board (not! from a HotAirBalloons'Web ;) ):
It's not that there's so little love for 30ips, but rather it is that there is no love for it at all.
No cow,- no beef.
...and thus, - no love for steak :D

/respects
 

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Many people don't know how to align the machine properly. Sure the low bump is on another freq, but boy, the highs are so much more silky and the mids are pure art at 30 ips. I am talking two inch here right, which is another level than 1" or 1/2"16track.

I used to own a 2"16 track, man that's sound heaven. :)
 
Han said:
Many people don't know how to align the machine properly. Sure the low bump is on another freq, but boy, the highs are so much more silky and the mids are pure art at 30 ips. I am talking two inch here right, which is another level than 1" or 1/2"16track.

I used to own a 2"16 track, man that's sound heaven. :)
Click to expand...

The low bump will be at a different frequency alright. Twice that at 15ips. So if it was at 40hz it will now be at 80hz. Is that a problem? You decide.

The highs so much more silky? The mids pure art? if you were running out of headroom or dynamic range at 15ips, yes there will be a bit more headroom at 30ips and maybe that's what can be heard here. But only if it was saturating at 15ips.
Without NR, any analog machine will struggle on big dynamics in a live recording. As I said earlier, if there are dynamics problems at 15ips, 30ips will only help a bit, by a few db.
Analog NR is the only serious answer to this. That's why it was used so extensively.
Cheers Tim
 
Dr ZEE said:
ahhhhh, I see.
let's imagine then, it has to be something like this, then.
coooooooooool
OK, dear people who know, listen up:
The birdy gonna fly out of this little box, look right here.
Smile!
- FLASH.
:D:D:D:D:D
Click to expand...

Do you ever contribute anything to any thread worth reading?

Please, say something worthwhile or don't say anything at all.
 
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