Which Budget Monitors Please?

Thanks Dave, I just looked at the Massive site and tried to follow his guidelines but I'm a little confused. First, this is the SPL meter I have Silverline 633937 Sound Level Meter 50 - 126dB: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools just so you get an idea of what I see on the meter. Essentially I have to keep turning the orange knob until the needed starts moving so that then tells me roughly which level I am at and the needle gives a more accurate reading by either subtracting or adding from the overall level, the amount the meter shows. So for example, I did a quick test with my speakers set at my usual level and played a track in iTunes. I had to turn the knob to about 80dB and the needle fluctuated at about -2 to -4 indicating the level was actually about 76-78dB.

The part I am confused about is adjusting each speaker individually. I can't adjust them independently as there is just one volume knob for both speakers (this is on the front of the left speaker), so how would I calibrate my M-Audio AV30's? They are connected to my Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and I can disconnect each one seperately but I just can't adjust their volume levels.
 
ecc83 said:
Well, at least you consider the possibility, many won't!

Dave.
Click to expand...

I think it stands to reason that a moving part like the material of a speaker cone might change properties as it moves and vibrates. Evidence is the only way to say one way or another - I have none. I took it at face value that the speaker manufacturers know that their speakers change as the material flexes through use. Maybe they don't make such claims on their £5,000 models because they pre-stress the cones with a variac or use better materials - that's out of my price range (and the OP is looking for a £300 pair of monitors).
 
jonny deep said:
(and the OP is looking for a £300 pair of monitors).
Click to expand...

I think I will have to adjust my initial budget as it's becoming clear to me I'm not going to get what I want for £300 or individual speaker control. I am looking at the M-Audio M3-8's which are £209 each so I'm going to have up my budget to around £400-500 I think.
 
Johnny, Ken...Last guys I want to upset but this is a fairly recent phenomenon and has become entrenched in beardy "tweakyness". and has been extended to things like amplifiers.

I count myself as no kind of expert but I have involved with audio and reproduction for over 50 years. I took all the magazines, Hi Fi News, Tape Recorder (changed to Studio Sound then SS and Broadcasting) Wireless World and sometimes The Gramaphone if they were reviewing something tasty or I was looking for a particular recording.

In over 30 of those years no one ever considered the idea that speakers needed to be run in and the idea that something as "locked up" by feedback as a solid state amp would change its characteristics over time would have been risable. To suggest that cables (known as "interconnects" now in beardy Russ Andrews circles) could have an effect, even be directional??? You would never work as a reviewer again.

But somehow, unbelievably these ideas took hold. (we must never mention the *** but who said, "tell a really big lie, tell it often enough and it will become the truth"?

So, there MIGHT be something in speaker thrashing, I don't know but until someone presents me with a serious piece of research I shall lump in with $1k mains leads and other RA trash.

Op, Friend! I am almost sorry I mentioned calibration! Don't sweat it. Nice to do and really just having a mark and a level to return to is very useful. Ears can very deceiving things..ANY sort of reference helps.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Johnny, Ken...Last guys I want to upset but this is a fairly recent phenomenon and has become entrenched in beardy "tweakyness". and has been extended to things like amplifiers.

I count myself as no kind of expert but I have involved with audio and reproduction for over 50 years. I took all the magazines, Hi Fi News, Tape Recorder (changed to Studio Sound then SS and Broadcasting) Wireless World and sometimes The Gramaphone if they were reviewing something tasty or I was looking for a particular recording.

In over 30 of those years no one ever considered the idea that speakers needed to be run in and the idea that something as "locked up" by feedback as a solid state amp would change its characteristics over time would have been risable. To suggest that cables (known as "interconnects" now in beardy Russ Andrews circles) could have an effect, even be directional??? You would never work as a reviewer again.

But somehow, unbelievably these ideas took hold. (we must never mention the *** but who said, "tell a really big lie, tell it often enough and it will become the truth"?

So, there MIGHT be something in speaker thrashing, I don't know but until someone presents me with a serious piece of research I shall lump in with $1k mains leads and other RA trash.

Op, Friend! I am almost sorry I mentioned calibration! Don't sweat it. Nice to do and really just having a mark and a level to return to is very useful. Ears can very deceiving things..ANY sort of reference helps.

Dave.
Click to expand...

I am of the firm opinion that all the Russ Andrews twaddle regarding running in cables and directional interconnects is bullshit and nonsense (interestingly, some experiments show that people cannot tell the difference between the sound from a high-end speaker cable and a line of wire coat hangers soldered together). However, I'm less sure when it comes to a moving part like a speaker cone, especially considering some of the materials they are made from and the fact that a reputable manufacturer acknowledges the phenomenon. As I say, though, evidence from data obtained via a well-designed study would be necessary to really put it to bed. I find it impossible to believe there won't be some change, but it may well be imperceptible. I was of the impression it was generally accepted that speaker cones took some time to run in - I've only been interested in audio and hi-fi since very recently.
 
Last edited:
Ok, slightly different idea and feel free to let me know if I am way off but would the Genelec 8300 range of speakers negate the need for calibrating my speakers and worrying about room size and speaker position etc? From what I understand they have an automatic adaptive calibration system so I assume this means you can put them pretty much anywhere and they will adapt to the room and provide the best sound regardless of listening position, is that right?

I know these speakers are significantly more than my original budget but just wondered about them and if they're worth the money. I might be completely misunderstanding what these are for though.
 
Afx, I don't think any speaker can negate the need for size and placement. You still want the speakers to form a basically equilateral triangle that point just behind your ears. That's not likely to change. You still want them (depending on the porting) to be a certain distance from the back wall and from the side walls as minimums.
When I bought my speakers, I did my best to calibrate the room to the speakers, not the speakers to the room. Takes a bit more math, but my speakers run flat and they sound good because I figured out what frequencies my room was amplifying and attenuating, figured out proper placement and thicknesses and space behind to fix those frequencies. Re-checked the spectrum and tweaked with QRD. Not sure if this is the way the big boys do it, but it worked for my speakers in my room.
The Genelecs are nice, but the price gets steeper.

Dave. No harsh feelings from me. AFA electronic equip, no question, snake oil. But, I sincerely believe that (at least guitar and bass speakers) have a definite break-in period. Not sure why anyone would argue that. The new polymer materials that are being used in our studio monitors, maybe not so much. But I was running REW and using my meter quite a bit at the first when I got the M3-8s and there was a difference in bass response below 90Hz in the first few weeks. Could have been other factors involved, but it seemed like they broke in...
 
Looks like some of the conversation in this thread has gone away from monitors, but also I haven't sen any mention of acoustic treatment - bass traps in the corners, cloud, etc - without treatment in the room, spending a ton on monitors doesn't make sense. But definitely move up from those AV30s, their bass response drops off at something like 100Hz, I htink (the 'bass boost' doesn't improve that) so you can't get any real idea what your mix is doing down on the low end.
 
BroKen_H said:
I think all speakers have at least a little. It took a while for the woofers on my M3-8s to get rolling and let the bottom end through right. And now that I've got the volume issue sorted, I really, REALLY like them (they're 220W each in my little 10x12.5' studio...SPLs well over 110 when I first set them up).
Two of the most important aspects of picking your speakers are room size and port configuration. Room size is majorly important when considering how much wattage (and more importantly SPL) you're going to have to deal with. You want your woofers to start kicking some air to get the good response when mixing, but you don't want to have 100+ dB going to get there. If you have a bigger room, increasing the space between your ears and your speakers will reduce the SPL.
Port config is very important as rear firing ports will require bass traps behind them for accurate response. Front ports will need bass trapping behind YOU for accurate response. Makes a difference to the layout of your trapping. Most recommend trapping all the corners anyway. I have front port near fields (Rokit 5's) and rear ported mid-fields (the M3-8s), but the wall behind me has a door directly in both corners. Bass trapping went at the ceiling behind me instead of in the corners.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

BroKen_H said:
Afx, I don't think any speaker can negate the need for size and placement. You still want the speakers to form a basically equilateral triangle that point just behind your ears. That's not likely to change. You still want them (depending on the porting) to be a certain distance from the back wall and from the side walls as minimums.
When I bought my speakers, I did my best to calibrate the room to the speakers, not the speakers to the room. Takes a bit more math, but my speakers run flat and they sound good because I figured out what frequencies my room was amplifying and attenuating, figured out proper placement and thicknesses and space behind to fix those frequencies. Re-checked the spectrum and tweaked with QRD. Not sure if this is the way the big boys do it, but it worked for my speakers in my room.
The Genelecs are nice, but the price gets steeper.

Dave. No harsh feelings from me. AFA electronic equip, no question, snake oil. But, I sincerely believe that (at least guitar and bass speakers) have a definite break-in period. Not sure why anyone would argue that. The new polymer materials that are being used in our studio monitors, maybe not so much. But I was running REW and using my meter quite a bit at the first when I got the M3-8s and there was a difference in bass response below 90Hz in the first few weeks. Could have been other factors involved, but it seemed like they broke in...
Click to expand...

mjbphotos said:
Looks like some of the conversation in this thread has gone away from monitors, but also I haven't sen any mention of acoustic treatment - bass traps in the corners, cloud, etc - without treatment in the room, spending a ton on monitors doesn't make sense. But definitely move up from those AV30s, their bass response drops off at something like 100Hz, I htink (the 'bass boost' doesn't improve that) so you can't get any real idea what your mix is doing down on the low end.
Click to expand...

Tried to allude to it a few times. Just kind of using the hint button instead of the brick with a note on it thing...:)
 
Thanks Broken and MJ, yes I know I should probably look at bass traps and acoustic treatment but honestly I don't really know what I'm doing there and I've got to look at this objectively. I don't spend tonnes of time making music, I don't have a lot of space (when I do move I will likely be using a corner in my lounge to base my PC and music stuff just like I do now) and I don't have a lot of money. I think putting up some boards or foam padding on the walls might not make much difference and even if it does, will just make my lounge look ridiculous. I think I've become confused and seduced by looking at lots of different speakers and setups without taking into account the reality of my situation.

With that said, I think I definitely need an upgrade from my AV30's because as you pointed out MJ, the bass response is pretty bad. I'm just not sure which speakers to get really. I think I need to stick with my original budget of around £300-400 for a pair and look at some of the budget monitors as they will be small enough for my room and desk. I think while it would be great having big speakers, I just won't use them to their full potential as I know realistically I can't be playing anything loud because of neighbour issues.

In terms of space and positioning, at the moment (and possibly likely in the future) I have my desk backed up against the long wall of the rectangular room so the back of the speakers are about 6 inches away from the wall. I have angled them (they're at each side of my computer screen) towards me and I sit in the middle so that I am in an equilateral triangle with them. I am going to be getting a much bigger PC monitor soon (an LG 34UM95) so seeing as the screen will be much bigger, this will increase the distance between the two speakers.

I also need to consider connections of the speakers to my audio interface too, my new Tascam M-164UF has balanced outputs (either RCA/phono or 1/4" jacks) so I'll need speakers that have either RCA or jack inputs.

I know it's a tall order for £300 and I'm not expecting anything amazing, just something that has a bit more oomph than my AV30's really.
 
All things considered from your last post (#30), seriously take a look at Behringer's B2031s. Trapping does not have to cost 1000s. You can build a few gobos that you can move out to record and put away for fairly cheap. You can make your traps whatever colors you'd like to make them blend in or add to the ambiance of the room. Take a look through the studio build threads and see what others have done.
Honestly, without some kind of treatment, it is really difficult to make good mixes. I've only been making decent mixes for about a year (since I put up my treatment). Everything before that was literally crap. I'd think it was brilliant when I mixed it, but it would sound horrible in my car, or on the Bose system in the kids' room or even on another computer in the same room. They still tear me up a bit in the MP3 Clinic, but it's constructive now, not "Start over with all the faders down and all the effects off..." That was the #1 comment on my mixes when I came here. You are literally better off mixing in good headphones than an untreated room.
 
Thanks again Broken and sorry for making this thread huge and inadvertently starting a war about "burning in" lol. I will definitely take a look at the Behringer's, they are very reasonably priced and seem like a good match. In terms of mixing, I mix pretty much everything with my Audio Technica M50's and use the speakers as a reference to see what it sounds like but seeing as the speakers aren't up to much and lacking in bass, I don't think I'm doing myself any favours by listening to anything through them. Having said that, I've no doubt my mixes are terrible but seeing as it's generally only me and a few friends (most of whom no nothing about music) who hear them, I'm not that bothered. I generally go with the "if it sounds good to me, then it's fine" philosophy of mixing. You made me laugh when you said some people advise you turn all the effects off as I'm very guilty of recording everything with loads of reverb and delay but seeing as I make mostly ambient electronic stuff then it doesn't matter.

I am probably akin to those early-round auditionees on TV talent shows that think they are amazing but are actually terrible lol but I know not to subject anyone else to my rubbish.
 
"Looks like some of the conversation in this thread has gone away from monitors"

Well! Ee' started it Mr Mike!

Ken, yes peace man. Your are right, you cannot EQ speakers or room out of trouble, only make minor tweaks because you soon run out of headroom, to fix a 3dB dip you need to double the power input. So, useful but can never fix a pig's ear.

I purposely left guitar and bass (instrument) speakers out of the loop, special case.
Historically people didn't "break in" guitar speaker more practically destroyed them! There has long been the idea that you need to drive guitar speakers to within an inch of their lives to get a good tone. This is not so as Celestion (if we are name dropping here!) will attest. In fact in the real world where musicians cannot afford new drive units twice a year the rule of thumb is to rate the speaker at least 50% higher than the amplifier rating and preferably 100%. There is at least one old 100W Marshall that can put out closer to 200watts!

So, maybe there IS some settling in after a goodly time with guitar speaker, the cones are after all much lighter and a bit cruder than hi fi or monitor cones? But again, bloody hard to prove.

Yes, bass resonance does drop a few Hz in most speakers and this will be accelerated if the speaker given a hard time but this is due to the suspension compliance increasing and this has no effect on the general sound of the cone. LF response will go a teensy bit lower but by definition you will only hear that when and if the note is there!

There is a graduate thesis waiting there for someone, good luck getting funding! Most of the speaker makers prefer us to buy into all the myths and half truths!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Yes, bass resonance does drop a few Hz in most speakers and this will be accelerated if the speaker given a hard time but this is due to the suspension compliance increasing and this has no effect on the general sound of the cone. LF response will go a teensy bit lower but by definition you will only here that when and if the note is there!

Dave.
Click to expand...

And that's all I've ever meant by "break-in" on a studio monitor. The bass frequencies drop a bit as the unit gets it's initial flex. Blaring 110+ dB for a few hours a day for my first week while I "fixed" the room "loosened" the bass response from -3dB @ around 54 Hz down to about 41. Over half an octave...(Yes, mother, I did wear ear protection.) But at the same time, I was getting trapping up and acoustic work on the walls and ceiling, so the increased response and flatness could have VERY well been because of the math that I was applying to the attenuation of those frequencies that my room was displaying. After moving the speakers around a bit I've got response down to 39. Further proof of more break in? Still probably more the math than the myth...So I'll fly with you on this one.
 
Hi again everyone, sorry for resurrecting this thread but again I'm looking at which monitors to get, except I have narrowed the field somewhat. I have got my new computer now and have some spare money so I can up my budget to around £500-600. Anyway, I have been looking at the Genelec range again and I have seen the 8010's and the M030's. I know there's quite a big price difference between the two but I'm thinking speakers of this size are probably more suited to my needs. Seeing as I only sit around 60cm from the speakers and they're about 15cm from the wall, I don't really need anything powerful and won't benefit from them. Would I see any benefit in getting any of these over my M-Audio AV30's? I'm thinking at this stage that the AV30's are just a step from normal desktop speakers but not by much.

I've also seen favourable reviews for the M-Audio BX5 Carbon, Tannoy Reveal 802 and the Adam F Series. I am also tempted by the M-Audio M3-8's but think the smaller M3-6's might be better for my room.

Sorry I'm terrible at making decisions.
 
AfxTwn said:
Hi again everyone, sorry for resurrecting this thread but again I'm looking at which monitors to get, except I have narrowed the field somewhat. I have got my new computer now and have some spare money so I can up my budget to around £500-600. Anyway, I have been looking at the Genelec range again and I have seen the 8010's and the M030's. I know there's quite a big price difference between the two but I'm thinking speakers of this size are probably more suited to my needs. Seeing as I only sit around 60cm from the speakers and they're about 15cm from the wall, I don't really need anything powerful and won't benefit from them. Would I see any benefit in getting any of these over my M-Audio AV30's? I'm thinking at this stage that the AV30's are just a step from normal desktop speakers but not by much.

I've also seen favourable reviews for the M-Audio BX5 Carbon, Tannoy Reveal 802 and the Adam F Series. I am also tempted by the M-Audio M3-8's but think the smaller M3-6's might be better for my room.

Sorry I'm terrible at making decisions.
Click to expand...

Have you looked into acoustic treatment yet? Spending that kind of money on monitors is great - but if the room isn't treated, you're going to have problems. Any monitors with speakers ≥ 5" will be a big improvement from the AV30s - you will be able to hear the low end, which is why you need room treatment, too.
 
Last edited:
Okay, not to muddy the waters (more), but for smaller wattage speakers, there's a really good one you're overlooking in the Focal Alpha 65. 103dB max SPL and 105W won't kill you in a small room. Frequency response down to 40Hz@-3dB. Pretty good specs and they were on my short list when I did my research last year. Not saying run out and buy these, but should at least consider...

All the speakers you listed bottom out between 47 and 57 Hz. Low A on a piano is 55 Hz and that's not counting harmonics...yes, you'll hear them at -6/-12/-18db maybe, but they'll be there. They'll be better when your speakers go down to around 40Hz at -3...
Take a minute and look at some specs.

Also, the hoops I've had to jump through to get the rear ported M3-8s were not fun. Lots of math, lots of trial and error after the math. Take that into consideration and look at front ported speakers...:)
 
@MJB I know I really need to look into acoustic treatment but from what I've read so far, it's made me more confused and I think this is a job I can't tackle on my own. I've attached a photo of my room so you have an idea of what it looks like and where I sit. As I'll be moving soon then I am not going to do any room treatment now but may in the new house but I'm likely to have a similar setup to what I have now, in terms of space and room layout (so the PC and music stuff will be in the corner probably). I know having the computer right next to a speaker doesn't help but I don't want to put it on the floor as it's carpeted and that's not particularly good for the PC. I suppose I can move it if I need to, maybe get a small section of wood for the computer to stand on under my desk.

I think I just want to get some speakers now to have something better than my AV30's and presumably when I do move and treat the room, then that will also benefit the speakers. The JBL's are very tempting at £214 a pair but maybe I'll be better with the front-ported Focal's or something similar?
 

Attachments

  • MusicRoom.jpg
    MusicRoom.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 31
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top