What's your take on this???

A

analog aaron

Swami King of Poppers
Hey Guys, Sorry I haven't been too active on here lately. I've been extremely busy converting my garage to a studio. We've taken most of the funds we've gotten from our 2 bands (a pretty good amount in all) and put all the money into the conversion. Since I'm the one (just about the only handy one anyways :D) in the group(s) that's been working on it, it's taken me a while but I'm almost done and I'll post pics soon. Reel soon.

Anyways - WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS??? - one of my bandmates swears on his life that when rewinding a reel (and it's up to full speed) in order to stop the tape you need to press ffwd and then rewind and ffwd (back and forth) to "rock" the tape to a slow speed and then press stop. This can also apply to fast fowarding it. I've NEVER heard of this and in my opinion I would imagine this would be really bad for the reel motors and buttons. I would imagine the machine would go into "shock" from suddenly jamming the tape and reels into "the other" direction. Most R2R's slow the tape down anyways to a complete stop to avoid snapping the tape (like an immediate dead stop would do) I didn't bet him on this, but I really don't think he knows what he's talking about. Maybe he does (?), but I've never heard of this. What's your take on this?????
 
I'm not sure how viable this is for modern machines but I think this is actually a good practice 'cause pressing the stop button on FF / REW engages the brakes and can tug on the tape, while engaging the tape mechanism in the opposite direction keeps the tape tension equal, reducing stretching / breaking. I've actually snapped a tape, long ago, pushing stop on an old Akai but not with the other method. I've been actually doing this for my open reel machines. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, please but it makes sense to me.

Hint: if you're in FF or REW, hit the opposite direction REW or FF, until the tape stops for a brief sec, then press stop. I've never needed to do this "back and forth". Just one time, in the opposite direction and then pressing stop when the tape just "stops for a split sec".

BTW, how did you get on with your Ampex 641 / 388 biasing?
 
Cjacek!,

Thanks for the advice. Well, at least I'm not completely wrong (and he isn't either- arrrrrgh. haha) This makes sense now. As for the 388, I haven't messed with the biasing yet. I've got 2 brand new reels of the rmgi lpr35 I'll probably use first. But, once those are gone, I'm definitely going to try the ampex 641. Gotta use this stuff up, I've got much of it. In fact, I do remember using the 641 once on the 388 for capturing a new song idea during rehearsal, but it didn't sound GREAT the way I recorded it then. I also don't remember spending too much time trying to get a good sound either with mics and all) so maybe that had something to do with the quality of it. Even though technically the bias setting on the 388 (then and still) isn't set for 641, I don't remember the quality being horrible!? Hmm. Maybe I could tinker with the mic placement and eq a little and see if I get better results. If it sounds fair enough, I may not even bother with resetting it (?) To tell you the truth, I'm a little scared to start messing with it. Hahaha. I'm great with the mechanical side of repairing and cleaning machines, but not with the electronic side (calibration, bias, etc..) I'm afraid I may never get it back to the original setting.
 
If I'm not mistaken, whenever you have a machine which does "RTZ" (Return To Zero), that's exactly what the machine will do but automatically (speaking of "rocking the reels") so I doubt it's bad for the motors.

Yeah, the 641 surprisingly sounds fine on my half track machine, even though it's not biased yet. It has a unique flavor but of course mics / mic positioning makes a difference. It also depends what sound you're after and the 641 gives you a different one for sure.

Ha, yeah, I too am more confident with the mechanical side of things but dislike the electronics part... One thing that I can recommend, if you want to tinker, is to actually use a sharp pencil and lightly draw / indicate where a certain pot was set to originally. That way, if you should wanna return it back to where it was, it's all there. No harm done. :D
 
dodgeaspen said:
That's a new one on me. cjacek has more knowledge then me but I've never heard of this before.
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Well, it's not really my thing but rather I've heard about this practice before, thought about it some and it made sense. I always like to try new things.:D
 
I never thought about the return to zero aspect. I would have thought doing that in excess would wear the brakes and things a little faster. Thanks for the info. I will try it out and see what happens. Thanks.
 
Here's what I know or at least think I know...on "modern" machines with servo tensioning it is not necessary to manually modulate the transport speed when fast-winding off of a supply reel (either FFWD or REW). What that would do is potentially keep the tape from slapping around. Because of the servo tensioning the tape tension is held constant throughout the full wind process and then the brakes are applied as soon the tape comes off the tension arm. Frankly this is about the case (that the brakes are applied when the tension arm is released) with even "non-modern" transports like my Ampex AG-440, but there has been advisement to manually modulate the transport speed down when fast-winding off a reel, again, because of the tape slap. This is something I'll be doing once my 440-8 is up and running because the reels spin like a turbine in fast-wind and 1" tape could hurt...and a 10.5" reel of 1" tape on a heavy-duty precision reel has a little heft to it...and the brakes on the 440 were designed around 1/4" ~ 1/2" tape...need I say more?

The place I do know for certain about modulating the transport on my Ampex for instance isn't when fast winding off a reel...it is when shuttling to a cue point. If you hit STOP first instead of the opposite fast-wind button (to slow the transport down to a near stop and then press STOP and then press PLAY) it is possible for the 440 to throw a loop aft of the capstan shaft I believe and then when PLAY is engaged it can stress the tape or even break it. I read of an extreme case where tape got tangled and damaged something in the tape path. This is because transports like the 440 are not constant-tension servo-controlled...the tape tension is modulated by the capstan shaft and back-tension adjustment of a resistor that feeds the supply reel. Even servo systems have these same elements but a servo transport's reel motors work in concert...they "talk" to each other, while the likes of the 440's reel motors don't know each other exists and do their jobs based on how the back tension resistors are set...that's all they see. No counter, no STC, no RTZ on the 440...no automatic slow-down as you approach a cue point, which by the way would be leader tape or grease pencil on the tape or a mark on the reel on the 440. :)

Non-servo transport says "Its full-bore baby until somebody tells me to do something different!!" :D

No harm in slowing the transport down by telling it to go in the opposite direction, and I believe cjacek is absolutely correct that that is actually more gentle on the tape and how the servo systems modulate the tape speed when searching to a cue point...brakes are not involved. Watching my Tascam 58 scrub to zero in on a SMPTE frame is cool: wind-wind-wind, slowing down, slowing down more, rock-rock-rock, spool ahead a little, rock-rock-rock and then clickety-clack as the tape momentarily stops and then the pinch roller engages. Many of you see this all the time...I'm just like to watch the reels move. :rolleyes: The brakes may be applied when the transport comes to a stop before going into PLAY but that is just a safety really to hold the position...that's an extreme example of what happens with any servo transport that has an RTZ or STC function.
 
Interesting topic! All my machines are Tascam machines from the late eighties on. I finally realized all the mechanical brakes do is to engage when the tape has stopped, like a parking brake. They keep the tension on the tape and tension arms while the transport is stopped. All the actual slowing down of the transport is entirely handled by the dynamic braking action of the DC servo motors.
VP
 
dodgeaspen said:
I never thought about the return to zero aspect. I would have thought doing that in excess would wear the brakes and things a little faster.
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As Cory already mentioned (and VP), that the brakes are not applied at this time but only when it stops and not when RTZ or manual "rocking" is applied.... again, the brakes only engage when the STOP button is pressed. ;)
 
I have always jogged the tape on all my old reel to reels in the past (well, those with button/solonoid controls rather than lever controls). It's better for the tape to slow it down by going in reverse then stopping once the reels are nearly stopped.
 
I have to do this on my 34b, or else the tape slackens up too much and falls off the transport when it finally "stops". I think the brakes probably need some attention but I don't see this as being "broken", really, so I'm not going to fix it.
 
Yeah, my 58 did that for a little bit when I'd set the brake tension too light on the takeup reel.
 
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