What would you do......

C

chadsxe

New member
What should I do....

Let me run through my current list of equipment...

Delta 1010
Waves Gold Bundle
Sonar 4
Grace Design Model 101
DMP3
Mackie mixer
Event TR8
KSM27
2 x sm57
Shure Drum mic pack (not sure what the model is but I know its all PG stuff)

My most recent purchase was the Grace Design 101 and compared to the DMP3 it was night and day. I have been doing this long enought to know that I am done with so called budget equipment. I am now way more intrested in buying quality stuff that I am going to use 5-10 years from now.
With that said I am ready to make another purchase. Keeping in mind that I am mixing in the box and at this point have no desire to start going to the hardware route for mixing (Cost/quality). How would you spend 1,500? These are the few options I came up with....

1. Upgrade my drum section....
I was looking at a eight channel pre. Something like the Mackie ONYX 800R (999.99) or the RME OctaMix (879.99). With this I would have money left over for some good OH's. I have an extremely good hook-up with Shure and can get things at cost if not lower. So maybe something like a pair of SM81's or KSM137's. Keep in mind that I also use Drumagog a lot for kicks. Or I could scrape that and by a 2 channel pre for my OH something like the UA 2108 (1,459.00)

2. Upgrade my go to pre....
I was shocked how much was gained with the Grace Model 101 pre over the DMP3, but it also makes me realize there is still way more to be had. So I was thinking that since the 101 also a great DI, it would make sense to buy a better pre. I am leaning towards a one channel pre (UA M610, UA LA610) becuase at this price range if I were to buy a 2 channel pre I would basically be buying two pres in the same price range/class as the 101.

and that is that...

any suggestion.....

thoughts..

options....
 
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you could use a condensor mic...im not saying to spend 1,500 hundred on it obviously but it struck me that you are missing one....also i dont know of you situation but you could look into room treatment

EDIT: i dont know myself but i was told for in the box mixing a UAD card is awesome
 
I have the KSM27, its a LCD mic....

As gar as the UAD card goes, I was thinking about it but I just spent a hefty amount of money on the Waves stuff so it does not seem like a reasonable upgrade at this point.

Room treatment something that I am not worried about at this point.....
 
What would I do?

Hmmm. For starters, I'd get a shitload more mics. What you have is good, but damn ... I need more OPTIONS. :D

Then, I'd get a bunch of cool-sounding and functional outboard compressors and use them for tracking bass, or for gentle peak limiting on drum overheads.

After that, I'd get like a truck load or so of Corning 703 insulation, raid the nearest fabric store, and make myself a bunch of homemade mini bass traps.

That's just what I'd do, though. May or may not be right for you.
 
chessrock said:
What would I do?

Hmmm. For starters, I'd get a shitload more mics. What you have is good, but damn ... I need more OPTIONS. :D

Then, I'd get a bunch of cool-sounding and functional outboard compressors and use them for tracking bass, or for gentle peak limiting on drum overheads.

After that, I'd get like a truck load or so of Corning 703 insulation, raid the nearest fabric store, and make myself a bunch of homemade mini bass traps.

That's just what I'd do, though. May or may not be right for you.
Click to expand...

Well I changed the topic of this thread to "What should I do"...:)

There is something about moving to hardware compressors that is bothering me. You tell me if I am wrong but at this point in my recording carrer would I not see better overall results by putting the money some were else besides compressors. You mentioned controlling bass and peaks on OH's. At this point this seems like more of bonus then a must have. We all know it is possible to record dynamic takes without the aid of compression on the way in.

By the way do you mind furthing your comment about "cool sounding compressors"

Thanks
 
chadsxe said:
Well I changed the topic of this thread to "What should I do"...:)
Click to expand...

... which is unfortunate. I don't know what you should do, because I'm not you. I don't know your preferences or tendencies, or how you approach work. I know what kind of gear you have, which is mostly high-value prosumer stuff that's likely more than adequate for a recording musician. But I know nothing about you ... what your needs are, or how you approach music and/or recording.

You tell me if I am wrong but at this point in my recording carrer would I not see better overall results by putting the money some were else besides compressors.
Click to expand...

I can't really say, because I don't really know where you're at in your recording "carrer." :D Sorry -- just some good-natured ribbing there. But I can fathom a guess that if you're relying on samples or triggers for you kick drum, that you'd likely get much greater mileage by investing in a better drum set, or by aquiring whatever it is you need to get better kick tracks, for example.

I know that I, myself, like to have outboard compressors because they do something for me, and for the way I choose to work that is important. Even from a mental standpoint, I personally need something to commit to on the way in. I need to be making at least "some" decisions early on. But again, that's me, and it suits the way I work.

By the way do you mind furthing your comment about "cool sounding compressors"
Click to expand...

Sure. A cool-sounding compressor ... is a compressor that does something to the sound that you like. Generally, this will result in eliciting a response from the user. Generally, something along the lines of: "That sounds cool."

You can also substitute the word "bitchin'," "sweet," or even "nice."
 
Chess....

O.k. to each there own and that makes perfect sense.......

I am buy no means the one playing the drums, It has more to do with the crap kits that I am asked to record. I forgot to mention I have a B52 for the kick.

Can we add Rad to the list of words, it is not used enough these days...:)

Given the two situations that I listed above. All things aside, can you comment on thoose. This is the direction I am going in.
 
chadsxe said:
Can we add Rad to the list of words, it is not used enough these days...:)
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Given the two situations that I listed above. All things aside, can you comment on thoose. This is the direction I am going in.
Click to expand...

Alright. First off, now that I know a little more about your situation, I can definitely comment. I know now that you don't record yourself, but other musicians. That's important to know. And I have to say, you're going to need more mics. :D

1) Get some decent overheads. Get some stuff with different patterns for when you need to isolate things (like snare, toms, etc.), open things up (room mics, overhead, etc.), or reject/minimize things (like cymbals or other instruments in the same room).

The next area that would be smart to target would be a house drum set. Or at the very least some "house cymbals." Maybe a house kick. The reason I say this is because you mention that people are lugging shitty-sounding kits that they likely found at the neighborhood garage sale and are asking you to record them.

Whatever mic pres you use ... ain't gonna' make a damn bit of difference. When it comes to tracking drums -- or anything else for that matter -- you will forever be at the mercy of the "garbage in" - "garbage out" rule. People will play shitty-sounding cymbals, and those shitty cymbals will forever plague you ... haunt you ... destroy your hearing, and spoil what could have been masterpiece productions. :D

As far as your "carrer" goes, :D keep in mind that many people's engineering skills are often judged by how well they can record drums. And what's the best way to get better drum tracks? Better-sounding drums. I've said this a million times, but better drums make for improved audio fidelity. They make your mics, pres, and converters sound 10 X more expensive than they are ... and they do wonders for your engineering skils. Better drums will have a huge impact on the clarity and impact of the final mix, and will save you hours of frustration in both the mixing and mastering stages. Not to mention thousands of dollars in gear upgrades that you might not even need.


2) Don't worry about a "go-to" mic pre. You've already got a Grace, which is nice, and you seem to like it a lot, etc.

What you might want to do, however, is upgrade your other mic pres a tad. Nothing wrong with Mackies, dmp3, etc. but I'd have a serious look at something like the Sytek. That will give you several channels of pres that probably compare well to your Grace.

You're not recording people a track-at-a-time, so it does you little good to have one stellar mic followed by a bunch of average ones.
 
i have to say that i'm with chessrock here--it's the drums that often defines the difference between a "crappy home recording" and a "nice pro sounding recording". guitars, bass and vocals are easy to record--drums are NOT.

so with that in mind, in addition to good drums/cymbals, I would look at making sure your recording room sounds as good as possible. that's the single biggest improvement you can make. you can put the same crappy drumkit in 2 different rooms--one good, one bad, and the difference between the sound of the kit will be staggering. remember, it's the sound in the room that the mics will capture. the best sounding DW kit in the world played by a great drummer will sitll sound like ass when it's in a crap sounding room.

also, that 1010 will only take 8 tracks at a time....so if you're recording bands "live", your micing choices on drums are probably going to be limited to 4 (OH, kick and snare)......so a good sounding room will be of the utmost importance as the further you move the mic from the source, the more the room will come into play.


i too like compressors. you could say that i've got a woody for em. i like destroying signal with them. i DO commit to compressing to tape--b/c normally i have an idea on how i want things to sound in the mix when i'm recording. it's all part of preproduction, and a little preproduction goes a LONG way. i almost ALWAYS compress kick, snare, bass, vocals and guitars on the way in. usually not radically, but enough that i can be sure of consistent levels (mainly b/c the players are usually very inconsistent).

keep in mind that one of the things (other than the drums, which is also tied in here) that separates a "pro sounding" recording from an "amateur" one is the use of compression. and a variety of compressors will give you a variety of sounds at your disposal. you'll want "transparent" ones and you'll want "colored" ones.

there are a LOT of good compressors that you can find in the sub-$200 range--you've just gotta scour the used market. hell, my favorite electric guitar compressor is a Symetrix CL150, and i got it for $30. it's RAD. :D

in fact, i'll go out on a limb and say that the choice of compressor is prolly as important as choice of mic and mic pre.


cheers,
wade

PS--along with the Sytek, you might want to look at an OSA (Old School Audio) lunchbox and some modular pres. they're about $500/channel (and $500 for the 8x lunchbox), but supposedly sound quite nice. they're on my list when i've got a little extra to burn.
 
chadsxe said:
I have been doing this long enought to know that I am done with so called budget equipment. I am now way more intrested in buying quality stuff that I am going to use 5-10 years from now.
With that said I am ready to make another purchase.
Click to expand...

I think everyone would agree that $1,500 is not going to get you everything you might want or need. If you are patient, and buy occasionally and wisely, you can reach your goal of owning and using "quality stuff that I am going to use 5-10 years from now".

I'd suggest you start with microphones. How about a pair of nice SDs and a decent LD (perhaps tube)? Here's a couple of possible configs:

2x Peluso CECM6 (get the other capsules later)
1x ADK TT

2x Josephson C42
1x AT 4060
 
MRFace 2112


What is confusing me the most about compression (in large do to my lack of inexperince) is not how to use it but why to use it on the way in. Do diffrent compressor leave there own diffrent audio mark on the sound enough to warrent multiple units. I know the answer to this question is going to be yes, but how diffrent is that sound. I am guessing some warm things up and some add top end blah blah blah, but can't all this be handle via mic placment, instruments, eq. Keep in mind I am not talking about controlling peaks or squishing things. I am talking about the so called "color". How much of an improvment does this actually have on your audio, and why can't it be had somewere else.
 
sdelsolray said:
I think everyone would agree that $1,500 is not going to get you everything you might want or need. If you are patient, and buy occasionally and wisely, you can reach your goal of owning and using "quality stuff that I am going to use 5-10 years from now".

I'd suggest you start with microphones. How about a pair of nice SDs and a decent LD (perhaps tube)? Here's a couple of possible configs:

2x Peluso CECM6 (get the other capsules later)
1x ADK TT

2x Josephson C42
1x AT 4060
Click to expand...

Oh don't take me wrong I by no means think 1,500 is going to get me anywere close. I just want to make the best possible upgrade for the money I can at this moment.

The more and more I think about it the more and more I am leaning to buying a good pair of OH's.
 
chadsxe said:
Oh don't take me wrong I by no means think 1,500 is going to get me anywere close. I just want to make the best possible upgrade for the money I can at this moment.

The more and more I think about it the more and more I am leaning to buying a good pair of OH's.
Click to expand...

Good choice. If you blow your whole wad on a pair of SDs, you're up another level.

Microtech Gefell M300
T.H.E. modular system
Neumann KM184

Those are all keepers. I would chose the MGs over either of the others. They're great mics.
 
<< What is confusing me the most about compression (in large do to my lack of inexperince) is not how to use it but why to use it on the way in. >>

well, there's a couple different reasons. the first and foremost is to help avoid clipping--this is called Limiting. some compressors are good at limiting and some aren't. sometimes you want a limiter there.

another is for the tone that they impart to the sound. some compressors are world famous for the tone they impart to certain instruments/sources.

a third would be b/c you've got a very dynamic singer that doesn't understand that high notes are louder than the soft breathy passages, and that when she hits the high notes she needs to move back from the mic (aka, work the mic)......and if you don't have some sort of compressor on her, then the low parts are going to be very quiet b/c you're compensating the gain on the mic pre for the high notes that put you in the red on the last take. this is compressing.

and sometimes you want all of these going "to tape".

<< Do diffrent compressor leave there own diffrent audio mark on the sound enough to warrent multiple units. I know the answer to this question is going to be yes, but how diffrent is that sound. >>

some absolutely do, and some are quite sonically transparent. and yes, you're right--the answer is "very different". in fact, a lot of older comps will even sound different among units of the same make--some good, some bad (much like guitars). this is, obviously, the difference between "vintage" and "crap that's old".

for instance, i have a symetrix 425 that i run almost all of my acoustic guitar tracks through--often not compressing at all--but i use it just b/c i like what it does to the sound of the guitar. i can't stand that compressor on vocals in the least--compressing or not.

how different the sound is will depend entirely on the source, player, room, mics, mic pres and compressor used. my experience with the exact signal chain will be completely different than yours--i can't give you specifics.


<< I am guessing some warm things up and some add top end blah blah blah, but can't all this be handle via mic placment, instruments, eq. >>

i'm going to say "no". using the aforementioned acoustic guitar example, i love the sound i get just from running the track through the compressor--without it even compressing. there's no way i could get that sound without running the audio through it.


<< Keep in mind I am not talking about controlling peaks or squishing things. I am talking about the so called "color". >>

i understand--i'm talking about that too. :D


<< How much of an improvment does this actually have on your audio, and why can't it be had somewere else. >>

i think we need to step back and look at the process of recording for a minute.

the first step in recording is (or should be) preproduction. when you record, it's best to have a tangible idea of where you want the finished result to go.....namely, what you want the end result to sound like and you have to have an idea of how to get there.

IMO, the worst approach in the world is to just record some instruments randomly and slap them together and try to make them fit when mixing. that will make for a nightmare mixing task. it's best to record the instruments SO they fit together--and while i'm not trying to suggest that you play producer, every tracking engineer needs to have some ability for production.

so anyway, you need to know how to get there--this is where the gear and arrangement come in. what mic, pre, compressor, eq, effects, (etc) you use will largely be driven by the sonics you are aiming for in the song, and when they need to happen. does the snare need to have that big reverb the entire song, or is it better suited just in the chorus? that sort of thing.

for most of us, we tend to make-do with what we've got, and that's a major limiting factor. you can't get the lespaul/marshall sound with a tele and a princeton. not many of us have a lot of variety in our mics or gear, but the more variety you acquire (welcome to the moneypit :D), the more options become available to you.

for instance--you can record just about anything with an sm57. will it always be the best mic for the job? rarely. but will it always do the basic job of "transferring sound to a recorded storage medium"? absolutely. so, why then, if an sm57 can record anything, don't you want to use it when recording a classical orchestra from the audience? b/c it's not the best tool for the job. it will do the job, but there are tools out there which will do a better job.

so, when you find yourself having lots of choices, you find yourself able to to reach various sonic goals. through practice and experience (oh no, not that! :p), this allows you to do better preproduction b/c you have a firm handle on what it will take to get there.


so why so many compressors? b/c they all do the same essential thing differently. they all sound different. and they all react differently to different sources. i wouldn't want to use my RNC on snare drum, but i'll use that CL150 in a heartbeat......i wouldn't use the CL150 on vocals, but i'd use the RNC on some vocals (but not others).

one of the things i like best is that you can score some really decent sounding compressors for relatively low cash, and it's an easy way to expand your sonic pallate (and get experience with different kinds) for relatively cheap (ain't nothing cheap about this, i know).

suffice it to say, like women, no two songs are identical--they all have different needs. and it's the needs of the song that determines the direction we go with everything we record with. the compressors are but a small (but extremely fun) part of the whole pie.


and please understand that everything i have written may be wrong. :D


really, i hope that helps some, and feel free to PM me if you need anything.


cheers,
wade
 
Wow, that's a great post. The only thing I'd add is that the same kind of need for variety holds true for vocal mics... seems to me you want at least one of the "warm" variety as well as the "brite" variety. (You already have neutral with the Shure). That's at the very minimum.... remember, not every vocalist will really fit with any one mic.

FWIW...
 
chadsxe said:
These are the few options I came up with....

1. Upgrade my drum section....
I was looking at a eight channel pre. Something like the Mackie ONYX 800R (999.99) or the RME OctaMix (879.99).
Click to expand...
You will not be using a Mackie ONYX in 10 years time...If you want quality pre-amps that are great for drums, yet also versatile enough for acoutstic gtr, vox etc, then I would suggest spending $800 on four channels of Sytek pre-amp.
chadsxe said:
2. Upgrade my go to pre....
I was shocked how much was gained with the Grace Model 101 pre over the DMP3, but it also makes me realize there is still way more to be had. So I was thinking that since the 101 also a great DI, it would make sense to buy a better pre. I am leaning towards a one channel pre (UA M610, UA LA610) becuase at this price range if I were to buy a 2 channel pre I would basically be buying two pres in the same price range/class as the 101.

and that is that...

any suggestion.....

thoughts..

options....
Click to expand...

And if you'd like another budget quality pre(s), consider an API/Brent Averill or even 2 channels of Sebatron. These pres are within your budget & you will still be using them in 10 years time on various sources.

If there is one thing I have learnt regarding the purchase of gear...it is better to save for 3-4 months longer to buy something that will be with me for life, than to buy a lesser unit that I can afford now, but will sell in a couple of years because it's simply not a pro unit.

Do not compromise - A recording is forever, and the music you record with crap/substandard/hobbyist gear will be with you for life.

Wait and save...you will NEVER regret it.

Dingo
 
Sir Dingo said:
You will not be using a Mackie ONYX in 10 years time...If you want quality pre-amps that are great for drums, yet also versatile enough for acoutstic gtr, vox etc, then I would suggest spending $800 on four channels of Sytek pre-amp.
Dingo
Click to expand...

Has your 10 year old Onyx expired already? I'm hoping you must be talking from experience.

The Onyx 800R also provides conversion and an M/S decoder on channels 1 & 2 and D.I. Not really the same animal.

I have a friend who owns a local studio here, and he has had to replace all of the op-amps in his Sytek that he's owned for maybe 6 or 7 years. I wouldn't call that a great track record on that unit anyhow.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but you really should hear these Onyx preamps before shitting on them. Very tight and focused sound, extremely useful stuff and a better value dare I say than Sytek.

I've used both.

War
 
If you wanted to address the preamp issue and the overhead issue, you could save up another $300-$400 and pick up a Sytek 4 channel pre from Mike Stoica ($889) and a matched pair of Josephson C42s from Fletcher ($950). Both come very well regarded from everything I've read.
 
glad that seems to have helped some of you. :D

<< The only thing I'd add is that the same kind of need for variety holds true for vocal mics... >>

i would agree, but i wouldn't limit it to just vocal mics. the same could be said for drum overheads, acoustic mics, guitar amps, basses, snare drums....like chessrock said early on, "I need more OPTIONS". :D but as the question here was "why various compressors", i tended to be writing towards that.

i guess the point for me here is that we're all constantly learning (and should never stop learning) and having access to a variety of "toys" increases our knowledge (and thus the ability to put that knowledge to work).


cheers,
wade
 
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