I'm ready to start a new recording. I'm gonna use 2 machines ; the 388 and the TSR-8 : i'm not syncing them together. I want to record 8 tracks on one machine, then bounce down (IN STEREO)to 2 tracks onto the other machine (leaving me 6 other tracks to complete the song. QUESTION IS..... WHICH MACHINE WOULD YOU RECORD THE INITIAL * TRACKS ON? so ..is it tsr to the 388 or the other way around?
what would you do? 388 to TSR-8 OR?
- Thread starter tsqair
- Start date
B
Beck
Guest
Hmmm... I wouldn't do it that way. Since you have both machines, of course you're tempted to use them, but that may not be the best way.
I would record up to 6 tracks on the TSR-8 and bounce them to tracks 7&8 on the TSR-8. Manage the tracks so track-6 bounces to track-8, to avoid feedback.
You still have 6 tracks left and bouncing with the TSR-8 is sonically superior. Record with dbx on, but turn it off for the bounce.
~Tim
I would record up to 6 tracks on the TSR-8 and bounce them to tracks 7&8 on the TSR-8. Manage the tracks so track-6 bounces to track-8, to avoid feedback.
You still have 6 tracks left and bouncing with the TSR-8 is sonically superior. Record with dbx on, but turn it off for the bounce.
~Tim
I second what Beck says.
Or sell both for an MSR-16. You'd have 16 tracks and wouldn't need to bounce.
I only ever bounced a track on my MSR-16 for one song. I bounced the track three times, adding more effect each time. With the DBX, I didn't actually notice any generation lost.
-MD
Or sell both for an MSR-16. You'd have 16 tracks and wouldn't need to bounce.
I only ever bounced a track on my MSR-16 for one song. I bounced the track three times, adding more effect each time. With the DBX, I didn't actually notice any generation lost.
-MD
i'm a little surprised!
I didn't expect that kind of response.Certainly I would think that taking 8 tracks from 1 machine and bouncing them down to another would be better than bouncing internally on one machine. Quite frankly i was always a musician more than a recording engineer so it's great this forum exist's .I have alot to learn.
I didn't expect that kind of response.Certainly I would think that taking 8 tracks from 1 machine and bouncing them down to another would be better than bouncing internally on one machine. Quite frankly i was always a musician more than a recording engineer so it's great this forum exist's .I have alot to learn.
cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
It does make sense if your "other" bounce to machine is of equal or greater quality than your first. For instance, the TSR-8 has more tape real estate to offer than the 388, simply as a result of track width and tape speed and it would make sense to track on it. Now, if you had another tape deck of same or great real estate availability and spec, like maybe a 1/4" half track or even another 1/2" 8 or even a 1/4" 4 track, using the same speed (as your TSR-8) then you could potentially have greater benefit of bouncing externally.
Now, if, for some reason, you wanted to knock out a set of tunes on the 388, you could externally bounce to the TSR-8 and actually get better results then bouncing internally on the 388.
On the other hand, if you chose the TSR-8, for its better fidelity, and decided to externally bounce to the 388, then that's not a good idea, if you wish to preserve quality. Due to its slower speed / smaller track width, the 388 would not be able to preserve the quality from the TSR-8. The other way around, sure but then you would want to track on your better machine.
So, your option is to either bounce internally, on the TSR-8 (as Tim already mentioned), or get a better "bounce to" machine.
So, no, externally bouncing to another tape deck doesn't automatically mean better than internally bouncing. It depends.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
I'd disagree.
I think you're golden if you record an entire 8 tracks on the 388 & then bounce to 2-tracks on the TSR8. That seems to be adequately preserving quality during the first bounce & gives you all that extra headroom for the remaining 6 tracks. That's my 2¢.
I think you're golden if you record an entire 8 tracks on the 388 & then bounce to 2-tracks on the TSR8. That seems to be adequately preserving quality during the first bounce & gives you all that extra headroom for the remaining 6 tracks. That's my 2¢.
cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
I think you're golden if you record an entire 8 tracks on the 388 & then bounce to 2-tracks on the TSR8. That seems to be adequately preserving quality during the first bounce & gives you all that extra headroom for the remaining 6 tracks. That's my 2¢.
Yup, that's what I was saying too but if it were the other way around, TSR-8 >>>> 388 bounce, then it's a different story but, yeah, 388 >>>> TSR-8 is a good idea. The only issue is that the TSR-8 is sonically better so it would make sense to track on it and thus external bouncing to the 388 would not be so good. The other way around, sure.
So what would I do, as the OP asked? I'd either track to 388 then bounce to TSR-8 or internally bounce on the TSR-8.
dodgeaspen
New member
Hey guys. I have a Tascam 38 and would like to know in detail how to bounce tracks on this machine. Can anyone take the time to tell me? Thanks.
B
Beck
Guest
The thing to keep in mind when bouncing is to stay with the machine that has the highest fidelity, and accomplish the bouncing with as few generations as possible. If you take all eight tracks of the 388 and bounce those to two tracks of the TSR-8, you are indeed bouncing up to a better format, but if you don’t have to bounce externally to another device you shouldn’t. Even if you bounce everything out to 1/4" half-track (which has wider tracks than the TSR-8) you still have to bounce it back to two tracks of the TSR-8, which adds another generation of bouncing.
Sometimes there’s no way around it… for example, if you’ve filled up all eight tracks on the TSR-8 already. But if you keep the first phase of tracking to only six tracks you can bounce those to tracks 7 and 8 to preserve the stereo placement of each track in the mix.
After that first stereo bounce you’ll have six tracks open again to play with. So again you fill up four tracks and bounce those to 5 and 6. After that you have four tracks free to add more overdubs… and you’ve accomplished it all on one machine.
You can also overdub while bouncing. That is, add new material to the destination tracks along with the prerecorded tracks during the bounce. As I previously stated it’s best to track with dbx, but bounce without it. The reason is that the dbx encoding is already on the source tracks. Multiple layers of dbx companding can dull the sound and increases distortion. The headbump frequency is accentuated with each bounce if dbx is engaged, leading to boomy, less defined bass.
So here’s the trick to overdubbing new material with previously recorded (dbx encoded) tracks. For dbx Type-I buy an inexpensive dbx unit, such as the dbx 150 or 150X. (if your recorder uses dbx Type-II which most cassettes do, get a dbx 140 or 140X unit). So you bounce the prerecorded tracks without engaging dbx… but you overdub new material in real-time through the outboard dbx unit. Thus, everything that ends up on the destination tracks during the bounce/overdub is dbx encoded only once. So upon playback with dbx engaged everything sounds crisp and punchy.
Another option to consider is to sync the TSR-8 and 388 together and do no bouncing at all. This would give you 14 first generation tracks (Track 8 on each machine would be used for the sync code so you have 14 total for audio).
~Tim
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
All good suggestions, and some interesting tips too.
I'm not a huge fan of track bouncing, tho' I've done plenty of it. It has it's utility in production, especially in the analog world with limited track counts.
With these (or any) two machines, there are many variables and varied approaches you could take to everything. Probably a different method u could exploit for e'day of the week.
Bear in mind at it's most basic level, there is no such thing as a lossless bounce, (sorry digital guys!) However, losses can be minimized and fidelity can be preserved.
Any "Internal" bounce operation will be a "destructive" bounce when carried out, by design of the technique. Bounce tracks are fixed in the mix (on the target tracks), and the source tracks for the bounce are taped over, destructively rewriting tracks as the method progresses thru production. An "External" bounce operation preserves the source tracks from the primary bounce on it's own media. There's an advantage there if you consider revisiting the primary bounce in the longevity of a project, if it comes to that your options are open.
I've done both internal "destructive" bounces and external bounces, & I generally prefer external bounces FWIW. However, I might be more inclined to bounce a lesser track in back of a stronger or more prominent part, played live-to-track (with off-tape backing). That's maybe more like "bouncing-lite". I don't want to get too many tangents about track bouncing.
With these two different machines, there are several viable ways you could set up for tracking, bouncing, etc., and there's certainly no "best" way or even a concensus on any single thing.
The recognizable differences in fidelity between the TSR8 and 388 should be a non issue, as long as you're bouncing to the higher fidelity device, i.e., from the 388 to the TSR8.
I'm wholeheartedly in favor of adding parts live-to-track during the bounce. Been there & done that. I give it thumbs up as bouncing techniques go.
As far as sychronization being offered up as a solution, IMO is way above a better choice than bouncing,... with reservations that it's a very fiddly and complicated layer of technology to lay on top of the entire scheme of your studio setup. You'd be at minimum DIY'ing the cabling, which is not always a slam dunk or simple proposition when dealing with obsolete hardware. Not impossible, but a major PITA. Setup of the sync'd ATR system is fiddly at best that may need a few tweaks, but when set up properly and worked out it presents a great alternative to bouncing. Way better.
[Specifically for the TSR8 sync to the 388 a Tascam ATS-500 and IF-500 would be needed, as the TSR8 sync is serial and the 388's is parallel I/O. I know little or nothing about what other sync devices might work, if any.]
2 words on DIY cabling & sync PITA: sweet beats.
Tho' Beck's advice is all sound, (heh: pun), at a certain point between our varied tips you're splitting hairs. Either way you're creating 14 "virtual" tracks thru some level of bouncing. I say take an entier 8 tracks mixed off the 388 & dub them down to 2 tracks in stereo onto the TSR8, then knock yourself out on the remaining 6 tracks, (total 14). Beck says record 6 & bounce to 2 tracks in stereo, record 4 & bounce to another 2 (stereo bounce), (by then is 10 parts crammed into 4 tracks in a 1st Gen bounce), then knock yourself out on the remaining tracks, (presumably recording on them as primary tracks) for *total 14. However, if you take it to the hilt, there's (3+2+1) more (parts) "virtual" tracks you can record thru more bouncing. (Actually, the last track is not bounced, but it's the logical culmination of the technique).
All track bouncing (or any other technique) can be taken too far at times. I happen to think the "maximum" internal bounce, aka "reduction bounce" on a single tape deck may sound better on paper than in practice. I'm most in favor of a non-destructive external bouncing technique over an internal destructive bouncing technique. Sorry to repeat,... but the paradox is I've probably done more internal/destructive bounces than external. (Probably why I dislike it more).
With that being said, I think track bouncing has some utility in the studio. There are different ways to approach it and levels of intensity of the technique. Sorry to have hit a tangent over track bouncing! All the varied aspects of track bouncing was not part of the question. Heh.
Using 2 quality 8-tracks as the 388 & TSR8 could produce some great results in combination thru bouncing.
Aye!
I'm not a huge fan of track bouncing, tho' I've done plenty of it. It has it's utility in production, especially in the analog world with limited track counts.
With these (or any) two machines, there are many variables and varied approaches you could take to everything. Probably a different method u could exploit for e'day of the week.
Bear in mind at it's most basic level, there is no such thing as a lossless bounce, (sorry digital guys!)
However, losses can be minimized and fidelity can be preserved.Any "Internal" bounce operation will be a "destructive" bounce when carried out, by design of the technique. Bounce tracks are fixed in the mix (on the target tracks), and the source tracks for the bounce are taped over, destructively rewriting tracks as the method progresses thru production. An "External" bounce operation preserves the source tracks from the primary bounce on it's own media. There's an advantage there if you consider revisiting the primary bounce in the longevity of a project, if it comes to that your options are open.
I've done both internal "destructive" bounces and external bounces, & I generally prefer external bounces FWIW. However, I might be more inclined to bounce a lesser track in back of a stronger or more prominent part, played live-to-track (with off-tape backing). That's maybe more like "bouncing-lite". I don't want to get too many tangents about track bouncing.
With these two different machines, there are several viable ways you could set up for tracking, bouncing, etc., and there's certainly no "best" way or even a concensus on any single thing.
The recognizable differences in fidelity between the TSR8 and 388 should be a non issue, as long as you're bouncing to the higher fidelity device, i.e., from the 388 to the TSR8.
I'm wholeheartedly in favor of adding parts live-to-track during the bounce. Been there & done that. I give it thumbs up as bouncing techniques go.
As far as sychronization being offered up as a solution, IMO is way above a better choice than bouncing,... with reservations that it's a very fiddly and complicated layer of technology to lay on top of the entire scheme of your studio setup. You'd be at minimum DIY'ing the cabling, which is not always a slam dunk or simple proposition when dealing with obsolete hardware. Not impossible, but a major PITA. Setup of the sync'd ATR system is fiddly at best that may need a few tweaks, but when set up properly and worked out it presents a great alternative to bouncing. Way better.
[Specifically for the TSR8 sync to the 388 a Tascam ATS-500 and IF-500 would be needed, as the TSR8 sync is serial and the 388's is parallel I/O. I know little or nothing about what other sync devices might work, if any.]
2 words on DIY cabling & sync PITA: sweet beats.
Tho' Beck's advice is all sound, (heh: pun), at a certain point between our varied tips you're splitting hairs. Either way you're creating 14 "virtual" tracks thru some level of bouncing. I say take an entier 8 tracks mixed off the 388 & dub them down to 2 tracks in stereo onto the TSR8, then knock yourself out on the remaining 6 tracks, (total 14). Beck says record 6 & bounce to 2 tracks in stereo, record 4 & bounce to another 2 (stereo bounce), (by then is 10 parts crammed into 4 tracks in a 1st Gen bounce), then knock yourself out on the remaining tracks, (presumably recording on them as primary tracks) for *total 14. However, if you take it to the hilt, there's (3+2+1) more (parts) "virtual" tracks you can record thru more bouncing. (Actually, the last track is not bounced, but it's the logical culmination of the technique).
All track bouncing (or any other technique) can be taken too far at times. I happen to think the "maximum" internal bounce, aka "reduction bounce" on a single tape deck may sound better on paper than in practice. I'm most in favor of a non-destructive external bouncing technique over an internal destructive bouncing technique. Sorry to repeat,... but the paradox is I've probably done more internal/destructive bounces than external. (Probably why I dislike it more).
With that being said, I think track bouncing has some utility in the studio. There are different ways to approach it and levels of intensity of the technique. Sorry to have hit a tangent over track bouncing! All the varied aspects of track bouncing was not part of the question. Heh.
Using 2 quality 8-tracks as the 388 & TSR8 could produce some great results in combination thru bouncing.
Aye!
Last edited:
planning !
I think planning the tracking of this song( or any song) is going to be key .To give you an idea of what i do ,it's not uncommon for me to record 9 to 12 back ground vocal's then bounce them hard left /hard right and maybe a bounced track up the middle. to create a very phil spector/ def leppard type sound (really full depth )(it's alot of work but worth it) so I guess its gonna be.....stereo drum track then record acoustic 12 sring while singing one of the back ground harmony's then.... record the other 5 b.k.vox's that will fill the 8 tracks on the 388 /then i'll bounce to the tsr in stereo. and after that I don't know yet I need to think. Oh! thank's for the imput. Reel and tim . The whole DBX thing though... (l'm sad to say) is foreign to me . I have it on my machines but I don't like it ( at least when I recorded with the 388) I will reread your replies.( as there is much info to digest) Eventually I will finish this song and will post it.
all the best,
tommy
I think planning the tracking of this song( or any song) is going to be key .To give you an idea of what i do ,it's not uncommon for me to record 9 to 12 back ground vocal's then bounce them hard left /hard right and maybe a bounced track up the middle. to create a very phil spector/ def leppard type sound (really full depth )(it's alot of work but worth it) so I guess its gonna be.....stereo drum track then record acoustic 12 sring while singing one of the back ground harmony's then.... record the other 5 b.k.vox's that will fill the 8 tracks on the 388 /then i'll bounce to the tsr in stereo. and after that I don't know yet I need to think. Oh! thank's for the imput. Reel and tim . The whole DBX thing though... (l'm sad to say) is foreign to me . I have it on my machines but I don't like it ( at least when I recorded with the 388) I will reread your replies.( as there is much info to digest) Eventually I will finish this song and will post it.
all the best,
tommy
B
Beck
Guest
You may have a problem with the dbx calibration on the 388... might need to be adjusted, or the whole machine calibrated. The dbx on the 388 isn't as tight as it is on the TSR/MSR machines, but you really need it on tracks that narrow.
Noise reduction made these narrow formats possible. Without it the 388 has a signal-to-noise ratio of about 59 dB... pretty close to that of a cassette, which is not so good.
So although you can turn the dbx off, it's not really optional per se. The tolerances are very tight on narrow format machines and experience will help you get the last drop of goodness out of them. You've got to have the right kind of tape... what the machine is set for, and you need to keep the peak levels around zero VU. There's not much wiggle room with dbx and narrow tracks. If you push the levels you'll get artifacts that don't sound too good.
IMO, dbx sounds fine on the 388 if all is within spec and you’re recording technique is appropriate for the machine.
That being said, the TSR-8 is in a different league and does sound quite different, but it’s running at twice the speed with twice the track width, so that’s to be expected.
If you do decide start with the 388 and bounce to the TSR-8 you can still benefit from bouncing half the 388 tracks to tracks 6 & 7 of the TSR-8 and the other half to tracks 7 & 8 of the TSR-8. You’ll have more control while mixing down because you’ll be able to pan groups of voices and treat them with different levels of reverb, EQ and other effects. This gives you more options in post-production than if you have all the voices (or instruments) mixed on two tracks so early in the project. Of course if you can’t spare that many tracks you’ll have to do it however you can.
And there are many ways to apply the same concept. For example, a stereo bounce of several voices to tracks 7 & 8 and one or two voices that need to stand out bounced to track 6… well you get the idea. It’s all about careful planning and managing tracks when you have to bounce.
Noise reduction made these narrow formats possible. Without it the 388 has a signal-to-noise ratio of about 59 dB... pretty close to that of a cassette, which is not so good.
So although you can turn the dbx off, it's not really optional per se. The tolerances are very tight on narrow format machines and experience will help you get the last drop of goodness out of them. You've got to have the right kind of tape... what the machine is set for, and you need to keep the peak levels around zero VU. There's not much wiggle room with dbx and narrow tracks. If you push the levels you'll get artifacts that don't sound too good.
IMO, dbx sounds fine on the 388 if all is within spec and you’re recording technique is appropriate for the machine.
That being said, the TSR-8 is in a different league and does sound quite different, but it’s running at twice the speed with twice the track width, so that’s to be expected.
If you do decide start with the 388 and bounce to the TSR-8 you can still benefit from bouncing half the 388 tracks to tracks 6 & 7 of the TSR-8 and the other half to tracks 7 & 8 of the TSR-8. You’ll have more control while mixing down because you’ll be able to pan groups of voices and treat them with different levels of reverb, EQ and other effects. This gives you more options in post-production than if you have all the voices (or instruments) mixed on two tracks so early in the project. Of course if you can’t spare that many tracks you’ll have to do it however you can.
And there are many ways to apply the same concept. For example, a stereo bounce of several voices to tracks 7 & 8 and one or two voices that need to stand out bounced to track 6… well you get the idea. It’s all about careful planning and managing tracks when you have to bounce.