What to listen for from reference monitors?

D

Drakaland

New member
I'm fairly new to the entire recording and mixing process. Been slogging through it for about 7-8 months now. I'm using Tascam VLX5 reference monitors.

I know referencing and mixing is a subjective process, but here's my dilema. Our current mixes sound very good to my ear on the Tascams. Very rich, full and warm. It puts a smile on my face. I'm not suggesting it's perfect, I'm sure one with experience would find flaws, or let me know I'm going about it completely wrong, which is the topic of my question(s). I've started listening to professionally recorded and mastered CD's/MP3's on the tascams, and what I've noticed is that these songs sound "lo-fi," for lack of a better word, compared to what I'm working on. Here are some examples.

u2 War, U2 October, Police Greatest Hits, Radiohead's In Rainbows, Coldplay. In all cases, the songs on these albums sound very compressed, loud and seem to contain oodles of high end on the Tascams, unlike what I hear on a coloured stereo system. On the Tascams the bass is there with this pro material, but to my ear, it seems as though the deep bass end of the bass is missing, whereas in my stuff it's very present and full bodied. For instance, rifling through the Police album I hear Sting's bass and the attack in the mixes, but no low end rumble I'd hear on my home speakers, if that makes sense.

I assume I'm creating and mixing on my reference monitors incorrectly, trying to reproduce what I would normally hear from a coloured home stereo system, instead of trying to make the stuff sound more like the reference material played through the monitors? Is this correct?

I'm assuming that if I continue in this fashion, my stuff will not reproduce accurately on a low end home stereo system, containing frequencies a low end system cannot reproduce?


In sum, should I:

A) Continue to create and mix as I have been, and leave it up to the mastering stage to process a final product similar to the professional CD's I've been referencing, or

B) Should I use eq and processors at the early stage to try and emulate the reference material as closely as possible, before the mastering stage?

C) A little of both?

D) Go back to school and get a job?

I don't have any converted sample Mp3's yet, but I'll try to get one up at some point soon.

Hope this makes some sense.
 
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probably just an issue with being an experienced engineer with top-shelf equiptment or skills, versus the level your on.....

beyond that, there might not be a problem at all, just keep working on your craft and perhaps you'll achieve that sound your looking for....
 
How does your mix's translate in ,ley's say your car or your home music sytem? do they sound the same as with your Fostex monitors?
 
8bus said:
How does your mix's translate in ,ley's say your car or your home music sytem? do they sound the same as with your Fostex monitors?
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I gave it a test on my yamaha pc speakers and it sounds pretty good to me, much like the Tascams. However, the sound didn't reproduce very well on a pair of very crappy PC speakers at my buddy's house, nor on his ear buds.

Overall, I'm wondering why the pro music I'm referencing sounds so bass dead and high on my Tascams compared to my own music.
 
I've always wanted some nice monitors but I have to say that, honestly, I never have any problems getting my music to translate using these consumer speakers. It'd be nice to be able to hear all the details, etc. but I don't even seem to have to do anything special to get things to translate.

Best advice I could give would be to just keep listening to reference songs that sound close to what you're recording, and use that as a rough example of what things should sound like.

Good, accurate monitors will bring out all the good and bad things about a recording. So maybe you're hearing those 'pro' recordings for what they really are, or something's wrong. I would personally hate to have to shoot for a 'lo-fi' sound to get things to sound right.

Is there a chance you can post one of your good recordings, or one that sounds good to you on your monitors but bad on other systems?
http://www.lightningmp3.com
 
Drakaland said:
I gave it a test on my yamaha pc speakers and it sounds pretty good to me, much like the Tascams. However, the sound didn't reproduce very well on a pair of very crappy PC speakers at my buddy's house, nor on his ear buds.

Overall, I'm wondering why the pro music I'm referencing sounds so bass dead and high on my Tascams compared to my own music.
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Troubles in the bass frequencies could be the monitors, but more likely, lack of room treatment...bass traps, absorbers/diffusors, etc. Good monitors in a bad environment does nothing beneficial.
 
danny.guitar said:
Troubles in the bass frequencies could be the monitors, but more likely, lack of room treatment...bass traps, absorbers/diffusors, etc. Good monitors in a bad environment does nothing beneficial.
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I just ran into the garage/studio room and downloaded an mp3 sample and took a quick snap shot of the space while I was at it.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/Drakaland/studio.jpg

The blue bats shown are on every wall including the door. They are filled with soundproof insulation (that green fireproof stuff). This room doubles as our rehersal space since space is limited. If I need to treat the room more I should explore this further.

Anyhoo, here's a very rough sample of that song I am working on, sans main vocals. Don't mind the poor guitar mix/playing and backup vocals. The thing is pretty repeatative so I'm not sure it's worth listening to the entire thing.




I can hear the bass weave in and out of the song which is a tad annoying; it's a midi bass played on a keyboard and there are different strengths at which the keys were hit by the keyboard player. It still needs to be compressed. Regardless, this sounds pretty good in the studio to my ear and on my pc speakers.

Trash away.
 
I'm not sure what kind of insulation it is. But usually, it's best to have at least a 4" thick bass trap in each corner using rigid fiberglass (OC 703, OC 705 or rockwool/mineral wool). That will help with some of the bass problems.

The song to me sounds fine. Kind of bass heavy and maybe a problem on smaller/crappier speakers. But other than that it sounds really clean. Having a real punchy/heavy bass like you do can make this sound muddy on a lot of systems. It doesn't sound like too much just not well balanced between the lows and the mids/highs.

It's nice to have a good low end, and since you do, make sure you have enough mids and highs to balance it out. I can already tell just by listening on these small speakers that this would probably sound pretty muddy on a lot of car systems and some boomboxes.

The sound quality though is really, really good.
 
Thanks for checking it out. The insulation is about 4 inches thick I think, but I'll look into making some bass traps for the corners of the room if that will help. I agree that it's pretty bass heavy overall and def needs some tweeking. I've been trying to learn more about eq etc so I'm eager to get back in a do some more experimenting and tone it down.

Thanks Danny!
 
The suggestions about room acoustics are great. Also, your monitors look like they're a bit high and a bit too close to the wall. Having them around ear level and away from the wall by a couple of feet might help. Bass traps and other acoustic treatment might also help, for tracking and mixing. You might also want to lose the drum kit when you're mixing, or put a blanket over it to turn the cymbals off.

Listening to reference material is a great help of course, but if your room acoustics are in the way, it might be covering up some of the things you need to be hearing. Matching levels is another consideration, because of the Fletcher-Munson kind of stuff. You want to check out your reference material at the same volume levels you're going to mix at. Given that a commercial release is going to be at higher RMS levels, you might need to turn the monitors up a bit for the mix. Also, it's helpful to mix at lower volume levels for clarity and staying focused during a long mixing session, but cranking them up once in a while will help you to get a better picture of what's happening with the bass.

I don't know what kind of bass rig was used to record this tune, but it seems like there's too much in the lower octaves and not enough in the low mids. I like to get the really low frequencies to the point where they're felt but not heard - the kind of sound that hits you in the chest when you crank the volume. A lot of the definition of the bass sound comes from higher frequencies than that - areas that can actually be reproduced by cheap computer speakers or iPods or whatever. Maybe try more "bridge" pickup when recording the bass if that's possible, or more midrange in general. Especially around 200 to 500 hz. A small bit of high mids will help more for attack & definition if it's not overdone - it can make a more agressive bass sound if it fits the genre. It's a pretty common thing to try to really push the low end like that, but it usually doesn't sound great on every system. It can be tricky.

Bass is also a great candidate for compression if you can get the attack and release settings right. It might help to make it sound "present" in the mix while still playing nice with everything else.


sl
 
snow lizard said:
I don't know what kind of bass rig was used to record this tune, but it seems like there's too much in the lower octaves and not enough in the low mids. I like to get the really low frequencies to the point where they're felt but not heard - the kind of sound that hits you in the chest when you crank the volume. A lot of the definition of the bass sound comes from higher frequencies than that - areas that can actually be reproduced by cheap computer speakers or iPods or whatever. Maybe try more "bridge" pickup when recording the bass if that's possible, or more midrange in general. Especially around 200 to 500 hz. A small bit of high mids will help more for attack & definition if it's not overdone - it can make a more agressive bass sound if it fits the genre. It's a pretty common thing to try to really push the low end like that, but it usually doesn't sound great on every system. It can be tricky.

Bass is also a great candidate for compression if you can get the attack and release settings right. It might help to make it sound "present" in the mix while still playing nice with everything else.


sl
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We used a keyboard with a midi interface for the bass, with no added eq. The preset just sounds that way, but its far too bassy I agree. However, it was the most realistic bass sound we could find in the bunch. I'm going to try and play with cutting lows and maybe a little boosting in the mid-highs till I can find something a little more pleasing. It's nice for all you guys to check this stuff out and give me feedback. Being new at this can make one a little bit lost.

I'll also boost the chair and table so the monitors are lower down as well as move them back from the wall more. I read to set them up as you mentioned but I got lazy with the initial set up. I also note the blanket over the drums idea and that's def going to happen next time I'm in there.

BTW, how much would I be looking at to build 4 bass traps for each corner? The room isn't too large. It's a rectangle, dimensions are about 10.5 x 21 with 8.5 inch ceilings.
 
Drakaland said:
We used a keyboard with a midi interface for the bass, with no added eq. The preset just sounds that way, but its far too bassy I agree. However, it was the most realistic bass sound we could find in the bunch. I'm going to try and play with cutting lows and maybe a little boosting in the mid-highs till I can find something a little more pleasing. It's nice for all you guys to check this stuff out and give me feedback. Being new at this can make one a little bit lost.

I'll also boost the chair and table so the monitors are lower down as well as move them back from the wall more. I read to set them up as you mentioned but I got lazy with the initial set up. I also note the blanket over the drums idea and that's def going to happen next time I'm in there.

BTW, how much would I be looking at to build 4 bass traps for each corner? The room isn't too large. It's a rectangle, dimensions are about 10.5 x 21 with 8.5 inch ceilings.
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Each corner? What all 12? It depends on how many panels you want.

It'd be great to treat as many corners as possible with as much and as thick as possible. But it really all depends on your budget. Check out the studio building & display forum for info on acoustics and do a search in there for rigid fiberglass suppliers. Check out Ethans Acoustics FAQ too.
 
pandamonk said:
Each corner? What all 12? It depends on how many panels you want.

It'd be great to treat as many corners as possible with as much and as thick as possible. But it really all depends on your budget. Check out the studio building & display forum for info on acoustics and do a search in there for rigid fiberglass suppliers. Check out Ethans Acoustics FAQ too.
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Heh, sorry I meant 4 corners :) Thanks for the link!

Edit: On a related topic, any advice on where I should position my work station? I currently have it positioned in the middle of one of the longest walls in a 10.5 x 21 foot room. I'm thinking of moving it to the middle of one of the shorter walls since this will grant me more space to move the speakers out from the wall, instead of ending up in the middle of the room which is what will happen if I move them with the current setup.
 
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