What is the best microphone for recording an acoustic guitar?

[JohnnyMan]

I currently have two RODE NT1s (large diaphragms) going into a Behringer Ultragain Pro 2200 stereo mic pre. My budget is not that big (as you can tell by my gear). My dream is to get close to that Led Zeppelin III sound but I just can’t get that tone. I have a Norman 6-string and a Taylor 12-string. I realize I’ll never be Jimmy Page or have their budget BUT I’d like to do a lot better than my current sound.

I’m wondering: could it be my above sound chain? Will better mics or mic pres dramatically improve my sound? Should I have the gains of the mic pre cranked? Or maybe I should fool around more with mic placement?

 

[chessrock]

Will better mics or mic pres dramatically improve my sound?

Very likely so. It certainly wouldn't hurt in the least.
I'll take your Taylor, though. You'd probably get better recordings with that and what you have rather than something like a neumann or Schoeps and a crappy guitar.

I should fool around more with mic placement?

Absolutely. That, too.


If you don't have a lot of money to work with, I'd say go with an Oktava MC012 or a Marshall 603.

And I have an inexpensive favorite for accoustic guitar: The Rane MS1-B. It's a very little-known no-frills mic pre, of the transparent variety. It's one channel for $150 and it does one thing really well, and that's accoustic guitar teamed with a decent Small-diaphragm condenser.

 

[c7sus]

Tell us how you currently mic your guitars.

Positioning, input gain levels. And what's your room like? Live? Dead? Somewhere in between? Do you have a lot of flutter echo in the position you are miking from, like maybe the center of an untreated room?

 

[dwillis45]

I've had good success with a Shure SM81 and AT4050. They are pretty standard studio mics and both are priced under $500. I would also look at different preamps, perhaps the ever-present RNP ($475). You should also consider the other end of your signal chain. What are you using for a recorder? If it's computer or digital stand-alone, what kinds of A/D converters are you using? What kind of soundcard? Are you recording to 16 bit or 24 bit? All these things can make a difference, especially for acoustic recording with just a few tracks. Equally important, focus on mic placement and listen carefully to the low end of the eq spectrum. Acoustic guitars can be boomy. I would also use some reverb on the guitar to give it a fuller sound. Finally, if you are really looking for the Zepplin 3 sound, spend your money on a mandolin! I use a Weber Aspen and the combination of acoustic guitar and mando (strumming or lead) is amazing. They are easy to learn if you play guitar and there are some decent low-end models out there.

http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/90N.htm

Besides, if you got a mandolin it would give you 20 strings to change (eight for the mandolin and 12 for your Taylor)!

 

[CanopuS]

Play around with what you've got before you purchase anything, you can almost always get good results with standard equipment. However, if you do come to replace something, I think a preamp would probably serve you better.

 

[JohnnyMan]

Re: Re: What is the best microphone for recording an acoustic guitar?

Very likely so. It certainly wouldn't hurt in the least.
I'll take your Taylor, though. You'd probably get better recordings with that and what you have rather than something like a neumann or Schoeps and a crappy guitar.

The Norman isn't a "crappy" guitar. Consider it a high-end Seagul. It has a wonderful sound (at least to my ears). It's Canadian made so it has to be great.

Absolutely. That, too.


If you don't have a lot of money to work with, I'd say go with an Oktava MC012 or a Marshall 603.

I've read about the Octavas. I will check them out.

And I have an inexpensive favorite for accoustic guitar: The Rane MS1-B. It's a very little-known no-frills mic pre, of the transparent variety. It's one channel for $150 and it does one thing really well, and that's accoustic guitar teamed with a decent Small-diaphragm condenser.

Thank you for the tips. I will investigate your suggestions.

 

[JohnnyMan]

Tell us how you currently mic your guitars.

Positioning, input gain levels. And what's your room like? Live? Dead? Somewhere in between? Do you have a lot of flutter echo in the position you are miking from, like maybe the center of an untreated room?

Thank you for the response.
I have tried two positions. Position 1: Mic1 is facing the 12th fret about 4-6 inches from it and Mic2 is about 1.5 feet to the right (my right while playing the guitar) of mic 1 and about 1 foot higher.
Position 2: mic1 in same place but mic2 behind me up close to my right ear.

Neither has produced the tone (sound) I'd like.

I haven't tried setting the gains so they come close to peaking the preamp (yet).

I'm not sure what to tell you about the room. It's a spare bedroom made into an office/project studio. I'll get the dimensions tonight. There are no audible quirks in the room. I am reasonably in the center but there is a lot of bookshelves and furniture to make the room somewhat dead (I suppose).

I hope that helps.

 

[JohnnyMan]

I've had good success with a Shure SM81 and AT4050. They are pretty standard studio mics and both are priced under $500. I would also look at different preamps, perhaps the ever-present RNP ($475). You should also consider the other end of your signal chain. What are you using for a recorder? If it's computer or digital stand-alone, what kinds of A/D converters are you using? What kind of soundcard? Are you recording to 16 bit or 24 bit? All these things can make a difference, especially for acoustic recording with just a few tracks. Equally important, focus on mic placement and listen carefully to the low end of the eq spectrum. Acoustic guitars can be boomy. I would also use some reverb on the guitar to give it a fuller sound. Finally, if you are really looking for the Zepplin 3 sound, spend your money on a mandolin! I use a Weber Aspen and the combination of acoustic guitar and mando (strumming or lead) is amazing. They are easy to learn if you play guitar and there are some decent low-end models out there.

http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/90N.htm



Besides, if you got a mandolin it would give you 20 strings to change (eight for the mandolin and 12 for your Taylor)!

Thank you for the response and mic suggestions. What is the "RNP"?

I was recording into a Roland VS880 (mono through the ART Tube MP). Then I switched to an M Audio 24/96 sound card going into Windows 2000 (stereo using the Berhinger 2200 mic pre). (I just bought the M Audio Delta 10/10 card but I’m having driver issues.) I have been recording exclusively at 16 bit. All my cables are middle-end Monsters. If anything, my sound is thin vs. boomy. And it doesn’t seem to be “In your face” either. I am aware of the proximity effect with mics and try to avoid it.

A mandolin is not out of the question but I don’t think that’s going to solve my acoustic-guitar-sound woes. Maybe I do need to use EQ more and apply some reverb. I had hoped that the dry sound would be near perfect before audio adjustments.

 

[dwillis45]

The RNP (Really Nice Preamp) is shorthand for a preamp made my FMR. I don't know what FMR stands for but here's there web site:

http://www.fmraudio.com/

You can also search this BBS for all kinds of threads mentioning the RNP. I have never used the unit but it's mentioned quite often as a good solid budget preamp.

I'm a Mac/MOTU used so I can't comment to much on your Delta 1010 except to say I've heard good comments about it. Is there some reason you can't record at 24 bits? Is it a space issue or software limitation? I think it really makes sense to shoot for 24 bits. The sound differences are compelling especially with acoustic music.

On the EQ issue: It sounds like you need to play with mic position to arrive at the proper sound. I notice that you are using two mics. Are you running into phase issues? Is that a possible source of your tone issue? If so, you might want to do some research on stereo guitar techniques.

Sorry about the mandolin suggestion! I did not want to imply that it was a soluition to your guitar micing woes! I just think its a great combination particularly for the album you cited. Of course (WARNING: UNPROVEN PHILOSOPHY AHEAD) when your guitar shares space with other acoustic instruments it's role can change, and getting the ultimate guitar tone may be less of an issue. I've done a lot of acoustic recording where the guitar is more important for low end stuff like flat picked bass runs. The mandolin can fill in some of the high end and can perform many of the rythmic and percussive duties often filled by acoustic guitar. This does not mean that you should screw up the mic placement on the guitar! Only that other instuments can work in conjunction with your guitar to provide an overall sound

 

[goldtop]

Slightly off topic here, but anyway...

Which Norman guitar do you own? I've got a B20 which i really like, although like you i'm having difficulty capturing its sound with mics.

Also, do you like the Behringer pre? The sound engineer for our band uses one on our vocalist (female) live and even using a 58 it sounds really nice.

 

[tkingen]

Three thoughts...
1. Mic placement (as stated already)
2. You may be getting reflections from surrounding furniture or walls. Do you have carpet in the room? A plastic carpet protector for your chair? Ceiling and floor reflections can cause problems. Make a couple of gobos out of some heavy blankets and record with just one mic. Once that sounds good, experiment with two mics.
3. In my limited experience, most Behringer gear adds a hyped high frequency to all signals. Try more neutral mics and preamp.

Suggestions 1 and 2 are the most likely solutions.

Keep trying...you'll get it.

Terry

 

[c7sus]

To hear something more like you're used to hearing when you play, take a mic on a boom and put it about shoulder-to-ear height, pointing the capsule down at the floor.

Now set yourself up so that capsule is pointing across the face of your soundboard 2-6" BEHIND the bridge. You can angle the mic so it points at the soundboard, or so that the cap is parallel to the soundboard, so the plane of the capsule is 2-4-6 inches in front of the soundboard.

Wear headphones while dialing this in for tone. Moving the position of the guitar side-to -side or back and forth slightly will make some very noticable changes. Find a tone you like and rock out.

The farther from the top you get the more clean gain you'll need. You may have to trade some elevation for gain. Roll the cap slightly away from your head if breath noise is a problem. Try to use the mics "null" spots to your advantage.

 

[JohnnyMan]

The RNP (Really Nice Preamp) is shorthand for a preamp made my FMR. I don't know what FMR stands for but here's there web site:

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Thanks for the link.

You can also search this BBS for all kinds of threads mentioning the RNP. I have never used the unit but it's mentioned quite often as a good solid budget preamp.

Thanks I will check ot out.

I'm a Mac/MOTU used so I can't comment to much on your Delta 1010 except to say I've heard good comments about it. Is there some reason you can't record at 24 bits? Is it a space issue or software limitation? I think it really makes sense to shoot for 24 bits. The sound differences are compelling especially with acoustic music.

If I was to give an excuse for not going 24-bit, it would have been because of memory but I just installed an 80gig hard drive so I can't see of any reason not to do it. I still with have to knock it down to 16-bit for CD burning. Right?

On the EQ issue: It sounds like you need to play with mic position to arrive at the proper sound. I notice that you are using two mics. Are you running into phase issues? Is that a possible source of your tone issue? If so, you might want to do some research on stereo guitar techniques.

I wondered about that too but I thought that the mics have to be perfectly arranged for phase cancellation to occur? My thoughts are, what are the odds - - especially in two different positions?

Sorry about the mandolin suggestion! I did not want to imply that it was a soluition to your guitar micing woes! I just think its a great combination particularly for the album you cited. Of course (WARNING: UNPROVEN PHILOSOPHY AHEAD) when your guitar shares space with other acoustic instruments it's role can change, and getting the ultimate guitar tone may be less of an issue. I've done a lot of acoustic recording where the guitar is more important for low end stuff like flat picked bass runs. The mandolin can fill in some of the high end and can perform many of the rythmic and percussive duties often filled by acoustic guitar. This does not mean that you should screw up the mic placement on the guitar! Only that other instuments can work in conjunction with your guitar to provide an overall sound

Don't sweat the mandolin. (-; Led Zep's Tangerine or That's the Way, - - that's what I'm after!

Maybe I'll experiment more with mic placement and mic pre fine tuning.

Thanks again for all the great ideas and help!!

 

[JohnnyMan]

Slightly off topic here, but anyway...

Which Norman guitar do you own? I've got a B20 which i really like, although like you i'm having difficulty capturing its sound with mics.

Also, do you like the Behringer pre? The sound engineer for our band uses one on our vocalist (female) live and even using a 58 it sounds really nice.

Does G17 sound right? I looked all over the guitar and that was on a sticker on the back just above the tuning pegs. It has a Fishman pickup/preamp built in. The sticker inside the sound hole is blank where it has a place for model.

To be honest, I don't know enough about different mic pres to tell you if the Behringer is a good one or not. It seems alright.

 

[JohnnyMan]

Three thoughts...
1. Mic placement (as stated already)
2. You may be getting reflections from surrounding furniture or walls. Do you have carpet in the room? A plastic carpet protector for your chair? Ceiling and floor reflections can cause problems. Make a couple of gobos out of some heavy blankets and record with just one mic. Once that sounds good, experiment with two mics.
3. In my limited experience, most Behringer gear adds a hyped high frequency to all signals. Try more neutral mics and preamp.

Suggestions 1 and 2 are the most likely solutions.

Keep trying...you'll get it.

Terry

Terry,

Thanks for the suggestions. The room is carpeted. There may be minor reflections but they are not that noticable. I try to close mic as much as possible.

What would you suggest for mics and pres? Keep in mind I'm on a tight but not restrictive budget.

 

[JohnnyMan]

To hear something more like you're used to hearing when you play, take a mic on a boom and put it about shoulder-to-ear height, pointing the capsule down at the floor.

Now set yourself up so that capsule is pointing across the face of your soundboard 2-6" BEHIND the bridge. You can angle the mic so it points at the soundboard, or so that the cap is parallel to the soundboard, so the plane of the capsule is 2-4-6 inches in front of the soundboard.

Wear headphones while dialing this in for tone. Moving the position of the guitar side-to -side or back and forth slightly will make some very noticable changes. Find a tone you like and rock out.

The farther from the top you get the more clean gain you'll need. You may have to trade some elevation for gain. Roll the cap slightly away from your head if breath noise is a problem. Try to use the mics "null" spots to your advantage.

Thanks for the tips!! I will try them tonight.

 

[tdukex]

Ya know, Zep wasn't exactly known for producing pristine unadorned acoustic guitar sounds. I don't know that better mics and preamps will give you that Zep sound. Who knows what kind of processsing they did to those tracks? I'll bet anything they are not guitar->mic->preamp->tape tracks. They were known to do some pretty radical things.

Is your current gear capturing the tone of your guitars reasonably well? If it is, then it is doing its job. I've heard the Ultragain 2200 is decent, and I think the Rodes should do a fair job on acoustic. You can eq with mic positioning.

I think before you go and spend a lot of money on a new signal chain that may not produce the sound you are after, you should research and find out what equipment/effects Zep used to achieve that sound. Then you will have a better idea of how to get there from where you are now.

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Re: What is the best microphone for recording an acoustic guitar?

The Norman isn't a "crappy" guitar.

Absolutely not.

What I was saying is that you've got great guitars, and that's the most important thing (aside from your technique).

 

[JMarcomb]

Your fingers are gonna have more to do with your tone than your gear.
Bring your fingers to the gym.

Finger placement behind the frets.
thickness of pick
Attack of the string.
Velocity of attack
Angle of attack
finger length
Your mood
Weather

 

[JohnnyMan]

Ya know, Zep wasn't exactly known for producing pristine unadorned acoustic guitar sounds. I don't know that better mics and preamps will give you that Zep sound. Who knows what kind of processsing they did to those tracks? I'll bet anything they are not guitar->mic->preamp->tape tracks. They were known to do some pretty radical things.

Is your current gear capturing the tone of your guitars reasonably well? If it is, then it is doing its job. I've heard the Ultragain 2200 is decent, and I think the Rodes should do a fair job on acoustic. You can eq with mic positioning.

I think before you go and spend a lot of money on a new signal chain that may not produce the sound you are after, you should research and find out what equipment/effects Zep used to achieve that sound. Then you will have a better idea of how to get there from where you are now.

Tdukex,

Thanks for the response.
That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. (sort of) i.e. My signal chain is decent, now it's my responsibility to get the sound/tone right - - although I would have preferred to go out and buy a quick-fix solution (an inexpensive one, that is). If it’s not the gear, it must be me. I tried again last night with my Taylor 12-string and to me, my sound is getting worse. It was extremely muddy. It seems I am going have to just start experimenting with mic placement and gain settings until I get it right. I may use EQ later but right now the only thing that's in the mix is the stereo-miked guitar.

John