Volume Controls On Amp Heads: Several To Choose From (Huh??)

Mike Freze

New member
I have separate volume control knobs on my amp head for my individual guitar input channels (jacks). Then there is a "master volume" knob too at the far right. If I'm just recording one guitar through my amp (miked), what's the difference? Do I just use one or the other or both? I don't understand the difference when I'm trying to record. Do different settings affect the tonal sound of the guitar when recording?

Mike Freze
 
Crank your volume (on the left) then slowly turn up your master for various over driven sound.
And pretty much the opposite for a clean sound. Then all variations in between.
Experiment and choose the sound you want per track.
 
Hey, moresound, are you there? Fantastic info in a short description!! Now that makes sense! I want to thank you for all the times you have replied to my basic (sometimes stupid) questions because I am an experienced musician/singer/performer. But the recording end of things I'm just learning these past 6 months., and I'll tell ya, it's a different ballgame! (I'm sure you know). But I'm getting there thanks to people like you. If you ever need any help somehow, let me know, cause I'll be there.

I'm absorbing comments like yours and reading books but I need to actually start spending more time on the recording software program to put it all together. I'm trying to learn now through this forum and books but I have to start actually playing with my software more. Doing it, you know? If you don't learn from others, sometimes playing around with your recording software can harm you because you might settle for things that seem OK when recording but you could be practicing bad mistakes and not know when you could have done something better, you know what I mean? I gotta start actually recording and playing more with stuff as I learn.

Mike Freze
 
Hey, moresound, are you there? Fantastic info in a short description!! Now that makes sense! I want to thank you for all the times you have replied to my basic (sometimes stupid) questions because I am an experienced musician/singer/performer. But the recording end of things I'm just learning these past 6 months., and I'll tell ya, it's a different ballgame! (I'm sure you know). But I'm getting there thanks to people like you. If you ever need any help somehow, let me know, cause I'll be there.

I'm absorbing comments like yours and reading books but I need to actually start spending more time on the recording software program to put it all together. I'm trying to learn now through this forum and books but I have to start actually playing with my software more. Doing it, you know? If you don't learn from others, sometimes playing around with your recording software can harm you because you might settle for things that seem OK when recording but you could be practicing bad mistakes and not know when you could have done something better, you know what I mean? I gotta start actually recording and playing more with stuff as I learn.

Mike Freze


I do need my house painted. :D

Where in the world do you live Mike?
 
Ha! I'll take a painting job any time (work isn't that steady here lately). I live in Anaconda, Montana: beatuiful country, low humidity, low crime (so far), etc. I was born and lived in L.A. for my first 14 years but the family moved here later.

I now raise two twin boys (10) by myself: had them since ages 5 months old, got involved with the wrong person, two new kids, went to court because they would have been put up for adoption, won the case, and here I am (still no steady lady yet, but maybe someday). I have three older kids (30, 28, 26), but I screwed up on having these two. But I'm trying to do my duty and be a good dad. Very tough!! Used to play in bands all the time but I can't the past few years because I'm the only one for them around now and can't just be gone til 3:00 A.M, you know?? I hope I can do my gigging again one day again. It's been like 12 years now. I played 1,500 nights over 20 years before!! That's a lot. Miss it, I guess. For now, trying to learn the recording end of things (love it, will take time, but I'm 55 now so playing gigs and hoping to "make it" as a singer/songwriter is a bit farfetched). But I AM getting back into my songwriting again. I was good at it when I was young, working for London Records and having quite a few songs published (close calls, but no big breaks). Left L.A. at 19 and came back to Montana because I was homesick, missed my girlfriend, bla-bla-bla. Should have stayed. But that IS young.

You're in New Hampshire, is that right?? Married? Any kids?

Mike Freze
 
Oh, by the way, moresound. Forgot to tell you that I am substitute teaching in the area (hit and miss, but it's a job). I did go to college years ago (University of Montana, Secondary Ed degree), and I have subbed for quite a few years. For the past 9 years, I was a waiter/casino runner in a local restaurant/casino (they closed a year ago).

My certification has lapsed and would have to renew it one day to get a "real job." Not sure that's what I want, though. I should have got a music degree instead of the history/English endorsements I have. Still trying to do something with music, I guess (the real love of my life). It's the one thing that keeps me feeling alive, even to this day. Maybe I blew it, I don't know.

Mike Freze
 
Yeah good old NH. Kinda the same as Montana low in humidity and the crime is always south of us (Mass.)

I've known my wife since 1st grade. We have seven children together.

The commute back and forth everyday is gonna be heck if you want to paint my house though.

Keep up with the good work being a single parent. I salute you on your endeavor.
 
Thanks, moresound. You have 7 kids? You are busy too (ha). Hey, do you play gigs anymore? I want to again but hard right now. Probably for you too.

I repeat, anything down the road that I can help you with (or visa versa), let me know. I am good at songwriting; if you ever want some honest opinions about your songs, love to hear them. I can send you some of the songs I wrote (studio produced, just me and guitar) in L.A. when I was just 18. I have about 11. I can send them to you one at a time via e-mail attachments if youl'd like. Would love to have you opinions (that was so long ago, but it will show that I did have a craft down for commericail, radio-friendly songs back then).

If youl'd ever like to hear them, I'd need your e-mail address. Here's mine to respond to protect your privacy here.

Mike Freze

mike.freze@yahoo.com
 
I hardly ever play out anymore,once in a blue moon. Same with my own recordings I pick and choose probably 20, 30 a year now.

I own a few businesses though in the field. Touring live sound support and a nice studio. Both keep me very busy!

Privacy is no big deal here once you get to know the people and trust them everyone becomes very good friends even if they do flame each other everyday .... that's what friends are for.
 
I'm finding some of the best crunch tones by never having either knob cranked full-tilt.
Like if you set the Master low...the Volume seems to sound best when you get it up around the 3/4 full mark, and if you go beyond...yeah, you get more crunch but it also gets too compressed and soft/mushy sounding (which may work for some things)...but not pushing it full-tilt...maybe even just backing it off a click or two from full-tilt...all of a sudden you find this big, bold crunch tone that has lots of body.

I also find that often some of the best "no-brainier" tones can be found quickly by simply doing a mirror image of the two knobs. Like if one is at 9:00 the other is at 3:00...or if one is at 11:00 the other is at 1:00....and vice versa.
I'm not saying it's a guaranteed rule...but like if you just need a quick visual position...the mirror image settings for some reason always end up sounding pretty darn good on most of my amps, or they get you pretty close, and then you might just nudge 'em a bit to fine tune.
 
Well, hasn't this thread turned into just the sweetest little love-fest?:p

Seriously, I can relate to much of what you two have been through, I have some similar experiences- raised my son (from a quite different kind of mistake- I married her!) as a single parent, after the marriage came apart when he was 10. He's now 31, owns and runs his own business (music rehearsal and recording studio) and works sound and concerts in New Orleans- he's basically the reason I am even in this forum.

AFA master and channel volume controls, MV controls are rather distained by tube-snob guitarist, who generally feel they are tone-suckers. Not sure I agree, although I do see their point- more circuitry sucks a little tone out of the amp, with every component (yeah, a gross generalization, but you get the point.) Personally, I find them confusing, too- I like two channels at my fingertips, but I am smart enough to set the volume relative to the other, but not smart enough to keep track of THREE :eek: volume controls for TWO channels. When I am faced with a MV, I usually use it to turn both channels down equally, rather than to tune my OD sound, as I prefer to get power-tube OD with an attenuator.

But that's just me. YMMV.
 
I'm probably going to come off like some kind of a thinks-he-knows-everything ass by commenting here, which I'm not, but I do happen to know what Master Volume controls do elecronically and why amps have them. B4 I even start, I'll remind everybody that there's a small grey rectangle somewhere on the right side of the screen that will take you expeditiously to the next post if you find me a little too windy....

Each stage in an amp takes the signal up in level. In every tube amp circuit I've ever studied, the actual gain of each stage is fixed. The output of the stage is varied by a variable resistor at the output that lets you feed anything from 100% to near 0% of the signal on to the next stage. In the olden days when these amps were first designed, the idea in the designers mind was that distortion was a really bad thing. So they would design the gain stages such that each one (typically two sometimes three) had a little more head room than the next so that as the signal built up you were always maximizing the tradeoff between distortion and signal to noise for that stage (that isn't actually technically accurate, but the idea is right). Usually there would be a single volume control after the first or second gain stage so that you could regulate how much of the signal flowed on down the chain and thereby adjust the output volume. Somewhere along the way, somebody figured out that if you cranked that volume all the way up and fed the amp a signal from a hotter than normal pickup, it sounded really cool... but it was really loud!!! So somebody got the idea to let the hot input signal overdrive one particular tube in the chain, but then to put an additional attenuation control after that and before the signal enters the power stage so you could keep the volume in line. You distort the signal by turning it up in the early stage and then regulate the volume by turning this distorted signal down with a second volume control. This extra volume control is what came to be known as the Master Volume. Many of the old amps were configured effectively as mixers, with multiple input stages in parallel that summed together. The master is usually located after the combining stage, exactly like a master fader on a mixing board. A few more modern amps will have multiple masters for more flexibility, but that's really a different thing. As I've talked about in a couple of different threads in the last couple of days, the reason a lot of tube amp snobs aren't keen on master controls is that they do what they do by starving the power tubes of signal. Yes, that brings the volume in check, but it takes away the sound of those tubes being overdriven, which in the most famous amps around is the first thing that happens as it starts to get loud. So, with the master control down, and the gain up, you still get the sound of overdriven tubes, but they're overdriven preamp tubes rather than overdriven power tubes. Which is different from what you got from overdriving early designs back in the day. You also lose the sound of saturating the output transformer, which is also a key part of the sound of overdriven classic amps.

None of this means that overdriven preamp tube are a bad thing or that they sound bad. most of what we think of as "modern" distortion, when it isn't coming from a silicon circuit is coming from overdrive preamp tubes, sometimes several in a row. So, please don't misunderstand me. That is not a bad sound, it is just a different sound from what can be had from overdriving the output stage.

J
 
Quick and dirty, the master controls the power amp, the individual channel volumes control the preamp. Master=clean, pre=distortion. F'rinstance on a bass amp I set the master at 10, and keep the volume as low as possible, for a guitar I set the volume to the point where I have the distortion I want then set the actual output with the master, course the master has to be on a bit in order to get anything, otherwise the power amp is off. Amps with built in distortion I use like a bass amp and use the distortion circuit, I'm lazy, crank the master, set the output, add distortion, QED.
 
Good explination, jjjtttggg. Would have been nice for it to have been broken into more paragraphs, which would made reading and following it easier, but good info.

Personally, my tone-quest has brought me to the point where I rarely use pre-amp distortion. I favor power-tube distortion, now that I have discovered attenuators. Loving the warm, brown distortion and "natural" compression I get. I guess you might call that big, hard-detent knob on the front of my Altair PW-5 the "ultimate" master volume control!
 
Just watch the power tubes.
The harder you turn down the attenuator, the harder you push them power tubes if your preamp section is turned up high to avoid preamp distortion.

I've killed power tubes going for that ultimate power tube crunch...but it sounded real good, and I got it recorded before the power tubes started going. :)
 
"Ultimate" Master Volume Control! :D I like that. I read an article about a stage rig Eddie Van Halen supposedly used/uses where he runs one amp head into a hot plate as his preamp, and feeds the output of that into another amp head as his power amp to drive his speakers. In this setup he's LITERALLY using the power attenuator as a Master Volume Control. It lets him use an overdriven power tube as his preamp distortion instead of an overdriven preamp tube.

Yes, running an attenuator DOES consume life on your power tubes, but NO MORE SO than if you were actually playing that loud. The tube has no idea it's not driving a speaker with all that power. It just knows you've asked it to PUT OUT!!! and it will happily (and ever so beautifully) oblige, until it is spent and can put out n'more. So don't think of it as ruining your tubes. Think of it as saving your ears! :)

J
 
I usually only use the attenuator for performance or final recording. Similarly, the Deluxe Reverb also gets only occasional use. I have lesser gear that is my daily bread, like my Super Champ XD. Sometimes, good enough is best!
 
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