Vocal Recording and Mixing Advice for Pop Punk / Rock

B

Bobby Layne

New member
Hello,

2nd post ever here - 1st one was last month, saying how I'm gonna start working on re-recording vocals on projects I had started 8+ years ago and looking for advice. I am a solid way through re-recording my first one and was hoping to get input on the process I am using, as I am trying to get better results this time. My ultimate goal is to find a recording technique and plug-in "template" I can use for the large majority of all 20+ projects to help streamline the work and be more efficient.

Recording techniques: I am using my ST-59 mic, set to -10db, high pass filter, and cardioid in my untreated bedroom. I use a pop filter placed roughly 6 inches from the mic, and I sing roughly 0-3 inches from the pop filter (sometimes nose is touching the pop filter, others just a little past).

Mixing: I have all instrumentation mixed down from my Cubase file from 8 years ago and under 1 track. I am using Garageband for this project, doing stricly vocals only.

I have an individual track for basically each section of the song: Verse 1, Verse 2, Verse 3, Chorus (1, 2 and 4), "backup Chorus" (2 and 4, it's just copy paste same as other chorus but with no AutoPitch plugin and longer stereo delay (1/4 and 1/8, L and R)), quiet Chorus (chorus 3, and last phrase of Chorus 4), and 2 tracks for the backup vocals that sing the 3 word lines going into each chorus (5th harmony). Each track has different gain and volume automation for levels.

The tracks mostly share the same channel plug-ins and order, using either stock Garageband Plug-ins or the free MeldaProduction (M) plug-in pack:
  1. MAutoPitch (just main Chorus (50%) and Verse 2 only (10%)),
  2. Chorus (20%, not on main Chorus),
  3. Channel EQ (-6db cut at about 1k, +3db gain at about 3k, low cut at I think 150, high shelf gain of 1db at about 5k),
  4. DeEsser (did not change stock settings),
  5. Compressor (-45 threshold, 3:1 ratio, 1 attack),
  6. MSaturator (I use either the "bass, Hard or Soft 2" presets, depending on the track),
  7. MCharmVerb (25%),
  8. Space D (more reverb, main Chorus only, 90ms length),
  9. and Stereo Delay (15%, left timed to 1/8 notes, right timed to 1/16).
You can listen to the track here to listen how it currently sits.

I'm looking for advice (specific, vague, w/e) on the process I'm using and how the project currently sits. Any other plugins one would recommend? Too much? Sections to re-record or remix? All comments and snide remarks are welcome. :)
 
Take all the effects off, apart from maybe a bit of reverb, and then put up the results. I reckon it should sound better. There's far too much on there at the moment.
 
jamesperrett said:
Take all the effects off, apart from maybe a bit of reverb, and then put up the results. I reckon it should sound better. There's far too much on there at the moment.
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Sure thing. I will post. To confirm, keep the EQ, DeEsser, Compression, Saturator, and Reverb; lose everything else?
 
jamesperrett said:
The vocal still sounds odd to me - especially at the high end. Try taking everything off.
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OK. Here is the track with completely dry vocals. No EQ, compression, anything (I did my best to adjust volume levels to balance, but it's hard without compression).

Thank you again for listening and helping me with the mix. Let me know if you have any specific thoughts as to what in the high end sounds odd.
 
I don't have James' great ears, so I'm just speaking as an ordinary listening punter.
I preferred your effected first version, in terms of the vocals. I'm sort of annoyed with myself that I do, but that's down to me and my almost purist thoughts about every singer being able to hit the notes. I wish your unaffected vocal sounded as steady and consistently tuneful as your effected one.
 
grimtraveller said:
I don't have James' great ears, so I'm just speaking as an ordinary listening punter.
I preferred your effected first version, in terms of the vocals. I'm sort of annoyed with myself that I do, but that's down to me and my almost purist thoughts about every singer being able to hit the notes. I wish your unaffected vocal sounded as steady and consistently tuneful as your effected one.
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Thanks for the input! No need to feel annoyed about which you prefer. I've almost always mixed my stuff in my own isolated bubble, so it's just nice getting different perspectives.

And I wish my voice was naturally more on pitch too, lol, but that's why I do simple pop-punk style (Green Day / Motion City Soundtrack / Relient K are some of my favorites) and not Queen covers, lol. I have no ego and don't mind 0 plugins or 100, just whatever sounds best in the end. I don't mind re-recording parts to try to get a better performance on rough sections, but I'm trying to do my best this time to not overthink or be too critical of my own voice (these are songs and tracks I worked on since 2015ish, and eventually abandoned cause never was satisfied with the vocals).
 
I just went through all 3 versions, and (just to screw up the opinion poll) I preferred the second version . The first one had the vocals too buried in the mix and the chorus, 2 reverbs and delay just made things get a bit sloppy, especially during the chorus where you have multiple voices. The 3rd was too dry, and yes, it showed the pitch issues.

Some of your choices in the first go round seem confusing to me. You already had the high pass on the mic, yet you added a low cut at 150? Double whammy. Was something bass heavy, or were you trying to mask some undesirable aspect of your room? Most DeEssers will work in the 3 or 4K-10kHz range, but you also added 3dB boost at 3K. DId you add the EQ before the deEssers? If so, then you are making the deEsser work harder.

I think my ideal mix would be somewhere between the 1st and 2nd, and maybe a couple of dB stronger vocal during the verses. I might drop the drums down a touch and tame a bit of the top end on the cymbals if possible.

As for the song, it's good. I'm with Grim on this one.
 
TalismanRich said:
I just went through all 3 versions, and (just to screw up the opinion poll) I preferred the second version . The first one had the vocals too buried in the mix and the chorus, 2 reverbs and delay just made things get a bit sloppy, especially during the chorus where you have multiple voices. The 3rd was too dry, and yes, it showed the pitch issues.

Some of your choices in the first go round seem confusing to me. You already had the high pass on the mic, yet you added a low cut at 150? Double whammy. Was something bass heavy, or were you trying to mask some undesirable aspect of your room? Most DeEssers will work in the 3 or 4K-10kHz range, but you also added 3dB boost at 3K. DId you add the EQ before the deEssers? If so, then you are making the deEsser work harder.

I think my ideal mix would be somewhere between the 1st and 2nd, and maybe a couple of dB stronger vocal during the verses. I might drop the drums down a touch and tame a bit of the top end on the cymbals if possible.

As for the song, it's good. I'm with Grim on this one.
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Hey, thank you so much for the listen and the advice here! This is all extremely helpful.

I am currently about what you are thinking too - mix 1 was too wet, especially on the chorus. I think the 2nd mix was better overall, but I'm currently looking for that happy medium between 1 and 2.

With the EQ, there was no room correction I was attempting, I just had an auto-pilot mindset of "put low cut filter on everything except bass and kick drum." Which in this case, since I already had that set on the mic, probably is unnecessary. I'm curious to know how it will affect the track if I remove that in the EQ - will attempt that later.

That's also a good point on the DeEsser. I have it after the EQ, and wasn't thinking about that. I will look at the settings of the DeEsser (I've left it on stock default settings), and put it in front of the EQ to see how that affects it.

Not sure if I'll be able to do much about drums/cymbals, but I appreciate the note on that too! And thanks again for the kind words on the song! That means a lot. :)
 
OK - so it sounds like I'm hearing something odd with the mic. There seems to be very little presence but there is a bit of a resonance around 8-10k which makes the voice sound a bit thin and wispy. Do you have an SM58 lying around? I reckon you might get better results with that. Apart from that high end oddity, I don't think your voice needs a huge amount of processing - the dynamics are already fairly well controlled and I wouldn't expect to need to use much eq on it. Everything else sounds basically there although I would maybe reduce the level of the crash cymbal and maybe try more than one crash cymbal sample to add a little variety.
 
Bobby Layne said:
Hey, thank you so much for the listen and the advice here! This is all extremely helpful.

I am currently about what you are thinking too - mix 1 was too wet, especially on the chorus. I think the 2nd mix was better overall, but I'm currently looking for that happy medium between 1 and 2.

With the EQ, there was no room correction I was attempting, I just had an auto-pilot mindset of "put low cut filter on everything except bass and kick drum." Which in this case, since I already had that set on the mic, probably is unnecessary. I'm curious to know how it will affect the track if I remove that in the EQ - will attempt that later.

That's also a good point on the DeEsser. I have it after the EQ, and wasn't thinking about that. I will look at the settings of the DeEsser (I've left it on stock default settings), and put it in front of the EQ to see how that affects it.

Not sure if I'll be able to do much about drums/cymbals, but I appreciate the note on that too! And thanks again for the kind words on the song! That means a lot. :)
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You need to correct the pitch on the vocals - or at least I would - then I’d start thinking about the vocal mix.
 
Bobby Layne said:
Hey, thank you so much for the listen and the advice here! This is all extremely helpful.
:)
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There is a lot going on in a vocal. Effect wise and method of song. Dude my voice totally sucks..when I sing my eyeballs fall out..not sure why..and I make angry faces..singing takes years to master or even get to a point.

not great either..and i lost a tooth while working..try singing without a front tooth.. it ain't pretty.



Sometimes , no matter how hard you try..you just can't be Alice Cooper
 
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The first one sounded ok to me.
But I did notice some weakness/wobbling in the voice.
I would not look at correcting the voice afterwards, but on getting it right in the first place.
I'm no singer, but am improving my singing by listening to my live processed voice through headphones, as I record.
 
Papanate said:
You need to correct the pitch on the vocals - or at least I would - then I’d start thinking about the vocal mix.
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Thank you Papanate for the listen! Are there specific sections that sound notably off?

I also wanted to ask generally in regards to re-recording: how many takes does one recommend?

For this track I just did 1 take, with the exception of the quiet chorus at the end which took probably 4-5 tries. For other tracks I've worked on, I've done it where I do 5 takes all back-to-back on different tracks, and then spend time afterwards grabbing the best sections from each recording and smashing them together.

I know one could say "do as many as it takes." For motivation purposes and to not be too much of a perfectionist, I've set my goal to release my 20ish songs by years end on Spotify, with vocals that are "mostly on pitch and not annoying." Lol. Mostly just hope to promote it locally and try to find a group of musicians around me who wanna form a band and have some fun.
 
jamesperrett said:
OK - so it sounds like I'm hearing something odd with the mic. There seems to be very little presence but there is a bit of a resonance around 8-10k which makes the voice sound a bit thin and wispy. Do you have an SM58 lying around? I reckon you might get better results with that. Apart from that high end oddity, I don't think your voice needs a huge amount of processing - the dynamics are already fairly well controlled and I wouldn't expect to need to use much eq on it. Everything else sounds basically there although I would maybe reduce the level of the crash cymbal and maybe try more than one crash cymbal sample to add a little variety.
Click to expand...
I do have an SM58, and I've tried recording off of that before awhile back. I remember hating the results, but I don't recall why, lol. And that's 2 thinking the cymbals are a bit too much in the mix - I'll have to see what I can do to lower that (and while I don't remember, I bet I did just use the same crash over and over again in Midi, lol). Thank you again for your insight, I super appreciate it! :)
 
Bobby Layne said:
I also wanted to ask generally in regards to re-recording: how many takes does one recommend?
Click to expand...
many as it takes. long as you're having fun belting the shit out..
Bobby Layne said:
try to find a group of musicians around me who wanna form a band and have some fun.
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That is a slippery slope ...a sheer cliff down. You got to do it at least once. ..yeah it is fun. Falling feels like flying...for a little while
 
Bobby Layne said:
in regards to re-recording: how many takes does one recommend?
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I don't recommend numbers. This is where the whole "there are no rules" myth actually isn't mythological and works. You literally do it until it sounds right to you. If you do it in one take, then it's one take. If it takes 3 or 7 or 10 takes, then that is what it takes.
When I'm doing vocals, either myself or recording someone else, I do it until I'm happy with it. I don't even think in terms of takes now. Takes are for pros. I'm here to enjoy the process and get down a satisfactory vocal. If that means it takes an hour, then it takes an hour. If it takes 8 minutes, then it takes 8 minutes. The listener will never know.
Or care.
This idea that a vocal session takes millions of takes and goes on all night is just pop star bravado. In one 3-hour evening recording session, Paul McCartney laid down the vocals for "Yesterday," "I'm Down" and "I've Just Seen a Face." He probably went home early. :P
 
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