Virtual guitar amps/analog guitar amps

ashcat_lt said:
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I understand that you probably didn't follow my link, and it was like tl;dr anyway....
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Actually...I followed your link and read most of what was in the two posts, both were just yours and no other responses....so there was no real discussion there.
I also took a listen to the clips.

First....you're taking my comment too personally and negatively. I was half-joking, hence the ;) at the end of the comment about self-respecting guitar players.

Second...you confirm what I was saying, it's a personal perspective thing. You're not using amps, but that doesn't mean anything AFA the rest of the guitar playing world. That's all I was really getting at, since some folks were tossing out these big assumptions about the demise of the guitar amp. :D

Also as someone mentioned (I think it was Greg)....it depends on the type of music, and partly why I said the thing about self-respecting guitar players using amps. I'm talking basically about Rock/Blues/Country and some Pop that is flavored with those three. That stuff is all about the guitar amps for the players.
Metal....hard to say, I don't follow it much, and I notice that modern Metal these days is really too focused on minute precision and they tend to like that "homogenized" tone, and sims certainly give you homogenized tones that are repeatable to-a-T over and over...so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the Metal shows opt for sims hidden behind fake amp stacks.
However, the more classic Rock/Blues players are NOT giving up their amps any time soon AFA the majority goes, and to me, that's what guitar playing is about. Music where the focus IS on the guitar playing and the tone. In those cases, there's no need for a dozen different amp tones...it's one or two, and the rest is supplemented with a few pedals in many cases.
Music where guitars are just used to make "sounds"...that's another ball game. The stuff you're doing (from those couple of clips) isn't what I would call "guitar focused" music even if you use nothing but guitars to make those ambient/head/trance sounds for those compositions, and in your case, it's almost irrelevant what's being used and what it's being played through.

I also saw the rig you're carrying around, and I have to say, that's a good sized rig....so WTF is easier/simpler about THAT, compared to a nice 112 combo and a few pedals? :)
I don't get the original point where some are saying "no one wants to carry amps around any more".
I'm not talking huge stacks on a tiny stage, but a 112/212 combo or even a small head/cab rig is not much of a burden (even for the older guys).

Anyway....I'm not stuck in the '60s or anything. I use the most modern technology right along side my tape decks and tube gear and guitar amps...but for me, the sound of a real amp playing behind my ass is NEVER going to be replaced by sims piped through a PA and then back to me via ear-buds or floor monitors.
I'm not saying I couldn't get use to that *if I had to*...since working in a studio environment is often a huge departure from live playing, so I'm use to working with headphones and non-live setups....I'm just saying why would I want to lose the amps and what's really gained???
 
Miro you have to dare to be different man. Fight the power. Amps have been holding guitarists back for far too long!
 
miro - maybe I should have had a ;) in there too. I really wasn't particularly offended. I do what I do. That big heavy rack is 1) replaced by a much more compact laptop setup now, and b) enough for 3 guitars and a bass. We bring it in, plug our guitars/pedals in, plug into the PA and are ready to rock in less than 10 minutes. The band we built it for - Circadian Nations - was a lot more in the direction of a normal bar band. We called ourselves "Country/Goth" or "Gothabilly", but it was really more of a Goth/Punk/Country/Blues rock kind of thing, and tone is pretty important to me. It worked and worked well, consistently, for several years of weekly gigs in big clubs and small, even outdoors. We sounded the same (given differences in room and overall volume) in rehearsal at our studio as we did on the big stage.

Greg - Did you miss my point? All I'm saying is that if you did get the chance to amplify the amp sim to the point where it was as loud as the Marshall, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference unless you actually looked. I personally don't need crushing amounts of stage volume. In fact, much of the reason I've gone this direction is to keep the stage volume controlled and predictable. Most of the places we played the bleed from the PA plus whatever we could get from the monitors was plenty for all of us, and when the PA or monitors was inadequate it was actually the bassist (and the vocalist, actually) that suffered the most. I can definitely dig the visceral thrill of hearing my guitar extremely loud. I don't have problems getting that in venues where it's appropriate. But my rig scales to smaller venues quite a bit better than yours - all the way down to headphones in the living room with a sleeping kid down the hall.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Greg - Did you miss my point? All I'm saying is that if you did get the chance to amplify the amp sim to the point where it was as loud as the Marshall, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference unless you actually looked. I personally don't need crushing amounts of stage volume. In fact, much of the reason I've gone this direction is to keep the stage volume controlled and predictable. Most of the places we played the bleed from the PA plus whatever we could get from the monitors was plenty for all of us, and when the PA or monitors was inadequate it was actually the bassist (and the vocalist, actually) that suffered the most. I can definitely dig the visceral thrill of hearing my guitar extremely loud. I don't have problems getting that in venues where it's appropriate. But my rig scales to smaller venues quite a bit better than yours - all the way down to headphones in the living room with a sleeping kid down the hall.
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I disagree with you 10000% on pretty much all of that. I didn't miss your point. You might be hard pressed to tell the difference between a computer into a PA and the real thing, but I wouldn't be. You're also wrong about your "rig" scaling down to small venues better than mine. My JMP is a monster always. I don't play coffee houses and poetry readings. But my JVM goes down to a whisper and maintains it's tone quite well. It also has a silent direct out. I can also use a small cab. And I still wouldn't be as lame as using a laptop. You don't have to sell me on why you do what you do. I don't care. Knock yourself out. I'll point and laugh at you, but I won't try to change your mind. Just don't say stupid things like my "traditional" way is wrong or obsolete or it doesn't matter. For the music I play, it does matter.
 
That was a little douchey and I apologize. I just think of big loud guitar as a holy experience and can't understand why anyone would think otherwise.
 
I agree with the the loud = rock thing. I don't agree that it requires any particular piece of gear to do it "right". If it sounds good, and it's loud, then it is good. Course, I never said anything about "wrong" or "obsolete". Frankly, I reject all such dogmatic statements. I know what works for me. You know what works for you. We won't be in a band together any time soon.
 
Lol. No fucking way.

So what is it about an actual amp that turns you off? Do you dare to be different just for the sake of being different? Are you trying to make some sociopolitical statement by eschewing traditional amplification? Are your sounds and style so pretentious that you can't do it with an amp and some pedals?
 
I mentioned it above. It's about control, consistency, and yes convenience.

Control - Stage volume, FOH volume, and even the mix in general are completely independent of my basic guitar tone. Timmy can have the sound of a tiny tweed, Dave can dime his Dunkle, and I can play the sweet spot on my AC30 and we can mix them so that everybody can hear each of them just fine. The guitar comes out of the monitors, which are generally placed in such a way as to avoid bleed into the vocal mics, and all of the band actually hears exactly what they are doing as a band to the audience.

Consistency - The mix is the same every damn time. I can record the DIs of a rehearsal, tweak the amp controls and adjust the mix until it's right, and then we plug in at the show without worrying about knobs getting bumped or placement issues (or other things...) affecting our judgement. And it's more consistent in venue as well. The stage sound is the same as the FOH. It's the same in the back corner where the bassist is, as up behind the FOH stack where I get stuck. We can play in a bedroom and pump it out to the party in the garage - or vice versa. We can stream it anybody in the world who might give a fuck. It sounds the same - given differences in playback systems, rooms, etc.

Convenience - Yep. That big wooden rack was absurd. I refused to carry it alone. But like I said, it was the amps for four people. Yes it required a PA, but so did the vocals. So we carried just a little more power than we otherwise might. In a venue where we knew there was a suitable PA, we just brought the rack. No fucking around micing the tiny amp or cursing about the asshole with the stack. No soundcheck. Two cables to the FOH mixer. Turn it up and blame me.

The laptop rig I have now is smaller, more versatile, and accommodates more inputs. I've been trying to convince the local "music cafe" to put a computer with a licensed copy of PodFarm and an interface in their soundbooth. Especially for open mics it would be pretty cool. Plug your guitar into that DI there. Now, take my iPad and spin through the amp carousel til you see the one you want. Turn the knobs till it sounds good. Get an ekit and Superior Drummer... If it was my place, I'd make all the "real bands" do the same thing. Don't bother bringing your own amp or drums. Probably be empty...:yawn:
 
Wow, you are everything that sucks about music. :laughings:



I'm glad it all works out for you though. That sounds like a nightmare to me.
 
ashcat_lt said:
It's about control, consistency, and yes convenience.
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OK...I can appreciate all of that, and the desire to have it.
I'm just not seeing that those things are "that" critical in most Rock gig situations, unless you're a major act that's cut an album and feels the need/pressure to reproduce each song exactly the same way night after night.

I don't know of a lot of typical Rock bands that are preoccupied with those things and have that need. If anything, they sound different from night to night, nor do they sound exaclty like their album...and it doesn't seem to bother them or the crowds.
Maybe in some Pop bands, certainly with the R&B crowd, or say, the theatrical shows, they might need the control/consistency all the time.
AFA the pure "guitar" Rock acts....most seem to get pretty good sound consistency and control just from their typical amp rigs.

I have to say, from what I heard of the type of music you are doing, I don't see that at all as a real need....and if anything, spontaneity and variations would fit perfectly with the type of almost improvisational style of music you are doing....of course, that's just my view, you obviously see it differently, and to each his own. :)

Now...AFA convenience....I dunno. For basic bar/club gigs, I find 3 guys with 3 amps to be a lot more flexible, than 3 guys plugged into a laptop feeding a PA.
Like, how does each person make on-the-fly adjustments to their tones if it's all in a laptop?
How do you reach back while playing and turn the knobs...when it's on a laptop?

I guess I'm still not seeing why an amp is more of a problem or less of a convenience. If you are a small act, you bring some small amps and it's not that big of a load in/out. If you are bigger act and you are doing larger venues, you most likely have roadies. If you are a major act, you also have some serious groupies,...so how much gear would you really have to lug yourself? :D

But all that aside....for me, if I was going to go play out at any level, and I was doing some type of Rock/Blues/Pop that featured guitars....I just wouldn't feel right trying to do it with a computer and sims. Something about a guitar plugged into an amp, and you playing it that just has a certain "validity" to it that I just don't get from any other options....but that's just me.
Not just for the stage "image", though that is part of it....but also for me feeling that complete connection of the guitar, plugged into the amp, playing through a cab, and me feeding off of that. It makes a complete cycle and the amp/cab become part of you and your playing, just like the guitar does. Somehow....when it goes off into digital land at some point, that cycle gets broken...from my perspective.
In the studio....it's a different mindset. You're recording "tracks"...so how you do that can vary a lot from track to track....but some guitar players need that complete cycle there too.
 
Yes all of that. ^^^^^

ashcat's setup is just so totally and completely un rock and roll, it makes me sad. Literally sad. It's anti rock and roll. It aint rock and roll, it aint punk, it aint art. It's sterile. I'm sad after reading that. I feel as if I just watched a video of a puppy getting hit by a car. I'm that sad about it. :(
 
I think I need to listen to about ten hours of live AC/DC, Motorhead, The Stooges, and Ramones to cleanse my palate.
 
This thread was a good read, but the bit about loud rock guitar being holy hit the nail on the head.
Good job, Greg, that pretty much says it all. :thumbs up:
 
Somebody needs to tell Moog Music, Tom Oberheim, Dave Smith, and the guys that just bought Buchla Electronics that the analog days are over. And don't forget to tell all the guys making discrete analog synth modules too.

:laughings:
 
I recently sold my Memorymoog, my OB-8, my Juno 60, and my Moog Opus 3. Now I have more space in my closet and I don’t have to break my back moving those heavy dinosaurs around. All the synth sounds I will ever need are in a computer now…thank god!
 
There are lots of ITB ways to get a good sound for some things.
I don't gig anymore so was looking for good sounds for my songs when recording.
I have a DI set up that suits much of what I do, (I like a bit of jangly chime and annoying treble) but when I tried for a good tube amp sound I couldn't get one I like or that worked - I used a variety of free & bought stuff including GuitarRig2.
I already had a monster tube bass amp but it couldn't be overdriven, a SS amp but it sounded good clean & not good with OD in front and a little Pignose which sounds like a Pignose. In the end I bought a 5 watt Kustom and by careful twiddling of guitar knobs, cab & mic placement I did find a chrunchy tubey sound that I liked and worked for the songs I needed it for.
I istened to the utub clips in the link through to the other forum and what I heard sounded nothing like a tube amp cranked for tube amp sounds so it didn't sell me in terms of my interests.
I not too fernickity about tone but I simply haven't been able to find a virtual rig that has the set up to let me find the sound I want.
I do recall people being shocked when Phil Manzanera's 801 recorded their LIVE album having taken line outs from all the amps straight to the recording console. Made for a good live recording - don't know what the actual live sound was like.
The point is technology lets us do things in new ways but we get to decide.
I like the look and sound of a big valve jobbie in a live gig, I like the sound of a valve jobbie when recording rock.
I decided to stay more real & less virtual but then again I only own 2 computer games (I haven't playe either to completion) and no games machines so I'm from a different generation/world.
 
The amplifier company I left some 2 months ago (illness) has about 360 bands on its books as endorsees and so, by definition that is 360 bands using "proper" amplification.

The company is BY NO MEANS the biggest in Britain leave alone the world so even if you only count people getting "free" kit, analogue amp usage is huge. Then, it must be remembered that each amplifier company must SELL a shitload of amps to be able to give away gear and support those musicians.

In ten years I would predict a vast reduction in valved amplifiers. Power amp sections will I think go first and be replaced with class D transistor amps. Pre amps might linger a while longer because peeps might pay $20 for a bog standard ECC83 but not $200 for a 6L6!

I don't think guitarists will go down the "computer into PA" route in vast numbers, more will go for modellers feeding hefty class D amps . Most folks that have tried "our" digital amp, even many valve diehards, say it is pretty bloody good. And they are working on an even better MKll !

Dave.
 
I know two subsets of musicians that tend to use sims. Wedding/cover bands, who use them because they need to get a wider variety of sounds than you could ever get out if one tube amp, and bigger bands that do fly-in gigs instead of the "get in the bus" tours.

The guys that do fly ins use them for some sort of consistency, because the backline is always rented and not necessarily what is on the rider. Some guys will use the sim as a backup, in case the amp provided is simply unworkable, some will just use the sim because its less of a headache than worrying about what is waiting for you at the gift.

Guys playing festivals in Europe also bring sims along for the same reason, you can't rely on the provided backline and you can't check a half stack on the plane, nor ship it for a one off gig.

A lot of metal guys are using the fractal unit, it really sounds good and reacts like an amp to your playing.
 
Greg_L said:
Even the grass and trees are way different than what I'm used to.
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Yes they are, Texas doesn't have any! Except where planted and watered. Starting in East Texas and into Arkansas, one begins to notice the vegetation change. Mainly that there are things growing.

From what I know, and I lived in Texas for about 15 years, I think no other state can rival the Texas music scene. From hardcore metal, to Texas Swing, Latino, various types of country, Jazz and Orchestra, Texas has a very vibrant and rich music scene.

I learned this first hand when I moved down to DFW in the early 80's. I took my rock collection (including Deep Purple) cause I thought there were no rock stations. Turned out they had three!

I don't live there any more, I didn't care for it (same reason you didn't like the north, except opposite, trees and grass) but to dispel a common misconception about Texas. You want to play a new kind of music, don't go to LA, Nashville or NYC, go to Texas. For weird shit, Dallas/Houston/Austin) (For the record, when I lived there, Denton was just a tiny DFW suburb ;) )
 
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