Using limiters on Mix busses?!

S

Svemir

Member
Hi guys I still have a doubt to clarify.

There is a part of my song where the drums are more quiet and then an explosive part where they hit hard.

Since the drums were causing some peaks in the Master (hence I had to change the Master limiter Threshold resulting in the song not being as loud as my reference track but way less), mostly kick and snare, I placed a limiter on the drums bus in the mix.

Now what happened is that the volume of the snare is a bit lower than before in the explosive part and is sitting back in the mix, is not anymore slammed as it was.

Also basically in the quiet part of the song, the snare remained the same volume so quite ok for me, but in the explosive part is actually lower in volume compared to the quiet part!!!

This because the limiter is attenuating the snare transient in the explosive part while keeping it normal in the quiet part, result: a lower volume of the snare in the explosive part which is not good.

Raising the snare volume or increasing the compression won't change much because the limiter is stopping it from peaking.

So I don't know what to do here, if I don't put a limiter on my drums bus my overall volume of the master will not be as loud as my reference track because if I raise the Master Limiter Threshold down to increase the volume the drums transients will cause a gain reduction over 4 or 5 db or even more!

From my understanding in order to have a Loud Master without clipping and distorting, I should place limiters in the mix busses like drums or bass for instance so that the mix will sound louder but maintaining headroom for the master, correct? The problem is that if I use the limiter too much in the drums bus it results in what I just explained, so basically it mess up the song dynamic limiting the snare for instance where it should be slammed and not limiting it where is less slammed, so the snare gets low where is shouldn't be.

It's like a snake biting its tail. Do I really have to choose between having an enough loud master (same volume lever as most of the songs) but having the snare sitting back in the mix, or having it slammed but the overall song volume is very much less loud compared to the songs out there?
 
From what I could understand, this to me sounds like a problem in the recording phase of the process.

What I mean is, you have to be really conscious with the sounds you are trying to acquire firstly from the recording process, you know?

That being said, there is nothing wrong with really wide dynamics in a drum playing. Sometimes that can be the vibe of the song. But if you are trying to keep the whole sound with the same level, compression alone wont fix it. You'll have to use some automation like mjb said.
 
CMolena said:
From what I could understand, this to me sounds like a problem in the recording phase of the process.

What I mean is, you have to be really conscious with the sounds you are trying to acquire firstly from the recording process, you know?

That being said, there is nothing wrong with really wide dynamics in a drum playing. Sometimes that can be the vibe of the song. But if you are trying to keep the whole sound with the same level, compression alone wont fix it. You'll have to use some automation like mjb said.
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Yes I agree, but the problem is that then in the Master you cannot raise the volume too much at least equal to the other songs out there, otherwise it will clip!! because the transients (hits) of the snare and the kick, or even the bass are causing the Limiter to have too much gain reduction!
Look at the photo below, I have set the threshold to increase the volume to match with my reference track, but it's causing too much gain reduction! look there!

1627744534353.png
 
Before you get to Ozone - you need to calm down the drums in the Mix. Like @mjbphotos said - do it with volume automation. That way you can be selective about where and what you affect. It is a lot of work - but the results are fantastic.
 
Papanate said:
Before you get to Ozone - you need to calm down the drums in the Mix. Like @mjbphotos said - do it with volume automation. That way you can be selective about where and what you affect. It is a lot of work - but the results are fantastic.
Click to expand...
Actually instead of automation I have used two drums tracks one for the quiet part and the other for the heavy part. But the problem here is that I can also use automation and raise the volume of the drums but if I raise it it will go from a peak of -10db to -5db, which is even worst, I suppose the point here is not about the drums volume but about compression and limiting?
 
Svemir said:
Actually instead of automation I have used two drums tracks one for the quiet part and the other for the heavy part. But the problem here is that I can also use automation and raise the volume of the drums but if I raise it it will go from a peak of -10db to -5db, which is even worst, I suppose the point here is not about the drums volume but about compression and limiting?
Click to expand...

I'm not clear what you are talking about - if you take the Loud drums and find the peaks, calm them down a bit - you mix will perform better in Ozone.
 
Svemir said:
If you like you can have a listen to my master, if you can tell it's too harsh? or too squashed? or it's fine I don't know.
I also linked a reference track I'm using

My Master:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n4g...ew?usp=sharing
Reference Track:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lB4...ew?usp=sharing
Click to expand...
It doesnt sound that bad at all. Yes the drums sounds a little bit squashed...but nothing too bad.

I'm still not clear on what you are talking about, but cant you just dial the threshold of the compressor down??? I think it will already do the job.
 
Svemir said:
Actually instead of automation I have used two drums tracks one for the quiet part and the other for the heavy part. But the problem here is that I can also use automation and raise the volume of the drums but if I raise it it will go from a peak of -10db to -5db, which is even worst, I suppose the point here is not about the drums volume but about compression and limiting?
Click to expand...
Do volume automation first to reduce the amount of limiting needed, firstly on a track by track basis, then on sub buses. This will allow the max volume on the main mix without limiting.
 
Papanate said:
I'm not clear what you are talking about - if you take the Loud drums and find the peaks, calm them down a bit - you mix will perform better in Ozone.
Click to expand...
basically I should work on the mix rather than fixing this on the master.

I should manage to increase the volume of the instruments, like the drums which are peaking, without increasing the DBs.

For instance I placed a limiter on the drums bus, and I increased the threshold and reduced the gain, result: the drums sounds louder but didn't increase in DBs.

But still for me the master is too low, so is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose? Craig suggested EQ automation, any other? like a saturator maybe? a gain plugin?
 
CMolena said:
It doesnt sound that bad at all. Yes the drums sounds a little bit squashed...but nothing too bad.

I'm still not clear on what you are talking about, but cant you just dial the threshold of the compressor down??? I think it will already do the job.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I could but I'm afraid to compress too much! SInce I'm quite a newbie and I still cannot really hear the difference using a compressor I cannot tell how much is too much! :D
 
Gtoboy said:
Do volume automation first to reduce the amount of limiting needed, firstly on a track by track basis, then on sub buses. This will allow the max volume on the main mix without limiting.
Click to expand...
But sorry, if my problem is that I should try keeping the DBs as much down as possible but at the same time having a the volume high, if I use volume automation, wouldn't affect the DBs? so if I raise the volume it will peak!! I think I should find a way to reduce the DBs, but as I said before, I'm afraid to push the limiter and the compressor too much.
 
Yes...go back to your mix and use volume automation to LOWER the peaks that are problematic....not raise everything else. Then you use less compression which is killing parts of your drum tracks. Smoother compression will help too.

Mick
 
Mickster said:
Yes...go back to your mix and use volume automation to LOWER the peaks that are problematic....not raise everything else. Then you use less compression which is killing parts of your drum tracks. Smoother compression will help too.

Mick
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Bloody hell I have found the solution I think. I just added this saturation plugin (free) on my drums bus and it made them much louder without taking many DBs. Easy pisy. https://www.softube.com/saturationk...EoeyWgyaNVTXyF18FNm_JwiBh9cmJmEUaAhF5EALw_wcB
 
Are you mixing or mastering at this point? Trying to do both at the same time can be problematic.

Instead of a limiter on the drum bus, try a compressor. This will be better at calming down the dynamic range without killing the transients only on the loudest stuff. You may even think about compressing the individual drum channels.

Also, if the drums get too loud in the loud parts, you might need to bring up the other instruments to match them and possibly turn the whole thing down so it doesn't clip.

After you get the mix to work, then you can start worrying about making it loud.
 
Farview said:
Are you mixing or mastering at this point? Trying to do both at the same time can be problematic.

Instead of a limiter on the drum bus, try a compressor. This will be better at calming down the dynamic range without killing the transients only on the loudest stuff. You may even think about compressing the individual drum channels.

Also, if the drums get too loud in the loud parts, you might need to bring up the other instruments to match them and possibly turn the whole thing down so it doesn't clip.

After you get the mix to work, then you can start worrying about making it loud.
Click to expand...
Yea basically I'm trying Ozone 9 you have the free 10 days trial, to understand more about mastering, and by doing that I found out that my mix had some issue.
So I'm now trying to improve my mix to be optimal for the master, so that in the master won't need to do much work.
For the drums I used a bit of compression in the single channels, then I placed a compressor in the drums bus to make them sound punchy and glued together, but making them sound punchy it also increased the peaks, so I placed also a limiter on the drums bus to reduce the snare peaks, just a gentle limiting.
Still though I have all my busses under control with maximum peaks around -10db, but in the master bus the peak is at -4dbs, so should I also place a limiter on the master bus?
My goal is to reduce the dbs as much as possible maintaining the song loud.
 
Mickster said:
Yes...go back to your mix and use volume automation to LOWER the peaks that are problematic....not raise everything else. Then you use less compression which is killing parts of your drum tracks. Smoother compression will help too.

Mick
Click to expand...
ok thanks

So basically I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version), I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest? I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things.

Also I tell you what happens when I use compressor and limiter, the compressor raise the drums volume making the punchy and it affects the DBs causing an increase of volume, then I place a limiter after the compressor on the drums bus to try to attenuate those transients, but then if I push the limiter too much the snare disappears.

What would you suggest?

1627820801099.png
 
The drums are not the instruments that will make your song loud, so if you are having to beat the drums back too much, it usually means the other instruments aren't loud enough in the mix.

The perceived volume of a mix has more to do with the instruments that have some sustain.
 
Farview said:
The drums are not the instruments that will make your song loud, so if you are having to beat the drums back too much, it usually means the other instruments aren't loud enough in the mix.

The perceived volume of a mix has more to do with the instruments that have some sustain.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is about volume, the instruments are balanced and I have compared it with the reference track so the drums volume is ok.
 
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